How many Collins families in Ireland? .....

Gran · Post by **Gran** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 6:49 am

A great grandmother named Margaret Collins with a father James. Born Ireland 1863/64.
What chance of tracing the birthplace

Even the naming pattern is no help, coming to the conclusion she didn't want to be found

Andy · Post by **Andy** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 7:20 am

Based upon Griffith's Primary Valuation there were literally thousands of heads of household with the Collins name.

By far the biggest concentration was in Cork with 1014 followed by Limerick with 285, the next biggest concentration was Galway with 195.

Statutory records began in Ireland in 1864 so there is an outside chance that your Margaret is findable on the Indexes in Belfast or Dublin. However Ireland doesn't have anything approaching Scotland People online (who does?) so you'll have to go yourself or engage a professional researcher.

IanS · Post by **IanS** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 8:02 am

Hi Gran, Where did you get Margarets info from? If marriage cert, who were witnesses, if census, who else was in household? Placenames on certs?

Gran · Post by **Gran** » Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:25 am

Ian the only information I have comes from a marriage certificate of Margarets marriage to George Scargill in Leeds in 1883. Her fathers name was given as James, no occupation, her age as 19 years at time of marriage.

The 1891 census lists her as 27, living with George and two children, Thomas and Sarah Elizabeth and baby born on census day George. All the family were down as born in Leeds.

George died in June 1891 and on the 1901 census Margaret is a widow born in Ireland living with the two eldest children, the baby died soon after birth.

Family folklaw says Margaret came over from Ireland to visit her uncle who was a policeman in Leeds. The address on her marriage certificate was the home of a policeman Benjamin Crew. He was Yorkshire through and through. So as Andy suggested I asked a professional to look into the policeman side of the problem. He found that a Francis J Collins became a policeman in Leeds in the 1860s, he was from Dundalk Louth and was sponsored by a S. Crew in Manchester. No sign of Francis in any of the English census, So once again a professional was asked to research the Collins family in Dundalk. But after weeks of research I was told there was no sign of a Margaret Collins with a father James in Dundalk.

So don't know whether or not to put the address on the marriage certificate and the fact that there had been a policeman with the Collins name in Leeds down to coincidence or not.

The witnesses on the marriage certificat were Thomas Riley and Sarah E Armitage. I even sent off for the marriage certificate of Benjamin Crew to see if his wife was the relative, but that too was a dead end.

IanS · Post by **IanS** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:53 am

Gran, Is that a transcription error on the Free B.M.D index for George Scargill and Margarett COLLEM? Does the actual certificate clearly state COLLINS?

IanS · Post by **IanS** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:23 am

Gran, I looked at the Free B.M.D. index image for this entry and it is definately Collem, but need you to check what the cert says.

Gran · Post by **Gran** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:31 am

Well from my knowledge it would appear to be a transcription error, but in fairness I thought the same when I first received the marriage certificate. The writing is as bad as some on census forms

But the childrens birth certificates state mothers maiden name as Collins and my grandmother always said her mothers maiden name was Collins. The researcher searched the church records at the time and found that the address was wrong on the certificate, there were two weddings on the same day and the female addresses had been switched around on the certificate.

IanS · Post by **IanS** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 6:47 am

Gran, something doesn't feel right . It's early in the morning here, I'm bit sleepy, and I've not double checked, but surely it's the responsibility of the couple to register the marriage, so therefore the address on the cert would have been given to the registrar by Margaret. Anybody got clarification on this?

Gran · Post by **Gran** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:40 am

As far as I know the churches have the responsibility of giving the registrar the records of marriages once a quarter. You are handed the marriage certificate by the priest after you sign the register.

So many people only signed their marriage certificates with a cross as they couldn't read or write, so how could they check the details were correct?

You have to go to the register office to register births and deaths, but not marriages as far as I know.

IanS · Post by **IanS** » Sun Jun 26, 2005 1:17 pm

hi Gran, Sorry, I must have been thinking of Scottish procedure.

From an earlier posting from AndrewP

''With a marriage, the couple complete the marriage schedule at the wedding and take the schedule to the registrar's office. It is then copied into the Registration book by a member of staff at the Registrar's office, and signed by the Registrar or (more commonly) Assistant Registrar. That is why you never see the signatures of the couple or their witnesses on a marriage certificate. It is always a transcription. That transcribing gives room for errors to be made occasionally.''

Similar explanation on main GROS website.

Will reply to your PM soon as poss.

P.S. What range of birth years did your irish researcher search? e.g. the 1891 census states she was 25-which gives approx birth year abt. 1866. Age 33 on 1901 census approx birth year 1868.
She's either told a little mistruth at wedding or census