Does anyone recognize this family ?

frances · Post by **frances** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 1:01 pm

Have tried for a long time to find my Irish Roots without much success

.

Does anyone recognize any of the following.

William Kelley/Kelly born Ireland C 1826 father William Kelley mother unknown.

His wife Sarah Byrnes/Burns born Ireland C 1838 her parents were Partick Byrnes and Ann ?.

William & Sarah left Ireland som after their births and before their marriage in Coatbridge on the 20th June 1858.

They had at least 6 children, William John, twins Joseph & Mary, Patrick, Edward and MaryAnn.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Frances

Post by **SarahND** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:02 pm

Hi frances,
I see from your previous posts that there has been much discussion of this family in the forum already with no results

Did William and Sarah have siblings? If so, have you tried tracing them in the censuses also? Sometimes one of them will let slip a place of birth that is more than just "Ireland".

Was William the tailor* living with his in-laws in Coatbridge in 1861? If so, it looks like Sarah's family, at least, came from Ireland after 1851, since her brother John, age 10 in 1861, was born there.

All the best,
Sarah

*I see he was working in the iron works at his death... but surely this is the correct family? I admit that the Ancestry transcription is all over the map, and that the father was presumably a "sawyer" rather than a "lawyer"

So perhaps William was a "nailer" rather than a "tailor"?

1861
Buchannan Street Bannons Land, Coatbridge, Lanarkshire
Patrick Byrum, 55, Head, born Ireland, Lawyer
Ann Byrum, 50, Wife, born Ireland
John Byrum, 10, Son, born Ireland, At School
Sarah Kelly, 20, Daughter, born Ireland
William Kelly, 30, Son-in-law, born Ireland, Tailor
William J Kelly, 1, Grandson, born Old Monkland, Lanarksh
Dennis Gallarton, 26, Lodger, born Ireland, Miner
John McLauchlin, 24, Lodger, born Ireland, Miner

Post by **SarahND** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:00 pm

Okay... here's a roundabout way that might help you find out where Sarah was from in Ireland, if I have all my facts straight

Bear with me...

Given the family in 1861 above, we can try to follow Sarah's brother John through the censuses. Since he was born in Ireland, there is always hope that some record, will say exactly where.

In 1871 he was still with his family and is a painter:

1871
86 High St, Airdrie, New Monkland, Lanarkshire
Patrick Barns, 65, Head, born Ireland, Labourer
Ann Barns, 61, Wife, born Ireland
John Barns, 21, Son, born Ireland, Painter
William Kelly, 11, Grandson, born Coatbridge, Lanarkshire, Scholar

Extra bonus is William Kelly

By 1881 he is married with a child:

1881
35 Doncaster St, Kelvin, Glasgow Barony, Lanarkshire
John Burns, 28, Head, born Ireland, House Painter
Margt Burns, 25, Wife, born Edinb, Midlothian
Jane Burns, 7, Daughter, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scholar

Now here is where we get our break (perhaps

)

In 1891 he is in prison $\:D/$ (interesting the things that make us happy

)

1891
H M General Prison, Edinburgh Road, Perth
John Burns, 41, Prisoner, born Ireland, Painter

Wife and daughter are on their own:

1891
207 Gairbraid St, Maryhill, Barony, Lanarkshire
Margaret Bruns, 35, born Edinbro, Midlothian, Power Loom Weaver
Jeanie Bruns, 17, Daur, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Power Loom Weaver

By 1901 he is out, but the family is still separated:

1901
61 Edington St, Milton, Glasgow St George in the Fields, Lanarkshire
John Burns, 52, Head, born Ireland, House Painter

1901
435 Dobbies Loan, St Rollox, Glasgow Port Dundas
William McLellan, 27, Head, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Stamper General Po
Jeanie McLellan, 27, Wife, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
Margaret Burns, 45, Mother In Law, born Edinburgh, Midlothian, Power Loom Weaver

So... two thoughts:
1) Did his wife get public assistance while he was in prison? If so, there may be a record.
2) The records for Perth Prison exist at NAS

http://www.nas.gov.uk/guides/crime.asp

Perth (General) Prison 1846-1913
HH21/47/1-8, HH21/48/1-5

Here's hoping that the prison records will state his place of birth! [-o<

All the best,
Sarah

frances · Post by **frances** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:17 pm

Dear Sarah

Thank you for all the information. I had found the 1861 census but didn't think to go down the track that you have suggested. I will see what comes up with the prison records and if there is any records of public assistance.

I read the 1861 census as being Patrick BYRNES, what do you think

Thanks again for the reply.

Kind Regards

Frances

Post by **SarahND** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:24 pm

frances wrote: I read the 1861 census as being Patrick BYRNES, what do you think

I haven't seen the originals for any of these censuses-- only the Ancestry transcriptions (hence the fanciful spellings...) Byrnes sounds good to me!

Do let us know what you find!

Regards,
Sarah

frances · Post by **frances** » Mon Apr 28, 2008 5:51 pm

Will do Sarah

Frances

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Tue Apr 29, 2008 5:48 am

Hello Frances,

I’ve found some newspaper articles regarding John Burns. Will send you a PM.

Alan

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Thu May 08, 2008 4:26 am

Frances has given me permission to post the particulars of why John Burns was in Perth Prison.

A brief summary of the trial appeared in the Aberdeen Weekly Journal on 30th June, 1887.

TRIAL FOR MURDER IN GLASGOW:—At Glasgow Circuit Court yesterday—before Lord Adam—John Burns, painter, was tried for murdering his mother-in-law, Mrs Leggat, by shooting her, and for attempting to murder by shooting Catherine Allan, on 31st May, in Abingdon Street, Glasgow. The jury, after an absence of 25 minutes, returned a verdict of guilty of culpable homicide, and of the statutory offence as libelled. Lord Adam, in passing sentence, remarked on the dangerous and foolish and now common practice of carrying revolvers. The sentence was 15 years' penal servitude.

According to a very lengthy and detailed report of the trial in the Glasgow Herald it appears that he was usually of good character except when under the influence of alcohol. There was an argument and some provocation and on impulse and in anger he put his hand in his pocket, pulled out a fully loaded revolver and fired it at the victim, his mother-in-law. The other woman either got in the way or was hit by a stray shot and suffered a relatively minor wound. Realising what he had done he went for a Doctor and a Policeman.

His place of birth was shown only as Ireland but perhaps the prison records show more detail.

Alan

frances · Post by **frances** » Mon May 12, 2008 3:48 pm

I have sent a PM to Alan but wanted to thank him on the forum for all his help.

His research certainly gave me something to think about all the more so as my Grandfather John Burns Kelly decided for what ever reason to drop the Kelly and be known as John Burns. Given what I have just learned you would have thought that he would have wanted to disassociate himself from the Burns name--The plot thickens

I am still no nearer to finding out which part of Ireland the family came from. Hopefully I will be able to look at the Perth Prison records sometime in the future at the NAS.

Thanks again Alan

Frances