Alvie parish in Badenoch

The History and Geography of Auld Scotia

Moderators: Global Moderators, Russell

Spacot
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:03 am
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: Alvie parish in Badenoch

Post by Spacot » Sat Nov 07, 2020 4:06 pm

Hi Geniedh.

I am sorry I do not have a great deal of info just this baptism record, but I stopped recording records at 1800
John Cameron = Margaret McBain in Dunachton:- William 26 Apr 1792, Ann 17 Nov 1799, Elspetj 27 Jan 1802.
I hope this helps,

Lynn
Researching
SANSON anywhere, MCBAIN inverness/aberdeenshire/glasgow,
KELLY ireland/glasgow, BELL ireland/campsie/glasgow

crayspond
Posts: 650
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:23 am
Location: Reading UK

Re: Alvie parish in Badenoch

Post by crayspond » Wed Dec 09, 2020 8:05 pm

Hi Spacot,
I just noticed this post tonight. My query is a bit different but you might be able to help. I have a James McFarlane who married a Isabella Milligan in 1903 in Old Kilpatrick. He disappears after that - I can't find a death for him anywhere. However i found a death for Isabella in Alvie 13th Jan 1948. She lived at No 1 Milehead Kincraig Alvie widow of James McFarlane Marine engineer. I wondered if he is maybe buried there too? I know he was born in Belfast but moved back to the Old Kilpatrick area after 1880. No worries if you can't help.

Thanks
Ailsa

Spacot
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:03 am
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: Alvie parish in Badenoch

Post by Spacot » Tue Dec 15, 2020 11:11 am

Hi Ailsa,

Sorry to be so slow replying to your post. I have been trying to follow various trails but to no avail. The MI's only go as far as 1855 so none as recent as Isabella's, SP has a few James Mcfarlane on the service return's so you could try them, where did Isabella come from was she from Alvie originally, I have looked at the valuations for Old Kilpatrick for 1905 and their is no trace of them that I could find. Have you checked to see if they went back to Ireland, or Glasgow. You could try contacting the minister of Alvie church, he might check the burial records for you and check for gravestones. She must have had a reason for moving to Kincraig its not a big place, basically a post office and a clutch of houses. I am sorry not to be of more help, you need to trace where they went after Old Kilpatrick, I know you probably already know that just sometimes you overlook the obvious.
Lynn
PS feel free to contact me again if you think of anything else I could help with.
Researching
SANSON anywhere, MCBAIN inverness/aberdeenshire/glasgow,
KELLY ireland/glasgow, BELL ireland/campsie/glasgow

crayspond
Posts: 650
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:23 am
Location: Reading UK

Re: Alvie parish in Badenoch

Post by crayspond » Tue Dec 15, 2020 1:04 pm

Hi Lynn,
Thanks for the reply - I did think about the Service Returns but too many to look through - by 1914 he was 36 - still could have been in the war. He was living in Renfrew in 1904 as he was the witness when his mother died. That's quite a good lead but for the fact there are so many James and Isabella McFarlane in the 1911 census!
I did notice on her death certificate in Alvie the witness was John McBain (brother in law) is that one of your names you are researching?

Ailsa

McBsofKingussie
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:58 pm

Re: Alvie parish in Badenoch

Post by McBsofKingussie » Wed Jan 13, 2021 12:15 am

Hi Lynn,

I came across this thread via Google and was delighted to find that you have a good deal of information on the parish of Alvie in the 18th century.

I have been researching my family tree primarily using Scotland's People.
I've reached the point whereby I know that my great great grandfather was Donald McBain/McBean, a shepherd who was born in 1780 to 1782.
He married Anne Warren in Kingussie in 1808 and together they had 10 children including my great grandfather William in 1819.
The first 7 children were born in Kingussie and the last 3 in Duthil.
Donald and Anne both died within days of each other in Duthil in 1862.
I also know that Donald had a sister, May, who was a year or two older. May married John Fraser and died in Alvie 1868 aged 88.
I have found the death certificates for Donald, Anne and May.

(It also looks like there was also an elder brother, John. There is no firm record of him in the censuses from 1841, nor is there a death record.
He married Isobel McPherson (b. Kingussie 1779) in 1804 in Kingussie and the naming pattern of their children is precisely what you would expect if John parents had the same names as Donald's parents).

Donald and May's parents were William McBean (a farmer and/or a tailor) and Helen McDonald.
That's where we hit a brick wall.
There is no marriage record for William and Helen and there are no birth records for their children. No death records either.
Its not 100% certain that they lived in Alvie/Kingussie but it seems likely.

Would you have anything that gives us any information about William and Helen who are likely to have been born between 1735 and 1760?

thanks in anticipation,

Iain

Spacot
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:03 am
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: Alvie parish in Badenoch

Post by Spacot » Wed Jan 13, 2021 6:54 pm

Hi Iain,

Quite a difficult problem, The parish records for 1759 to 1780 are missing but I have done what I can.
I have found only 1 Helen McDonald born correct time, father Alexander mother Jean Cameron in Aban, Alvie born 1750. I fave also found a family Alexander = Jean Arach in 1548 in Aban, a look at the record shows mothers surname could well be wrong and Aban is a very small place unlikely to have more than one family on it.

I when I was looking I found 2 gravestones in Kingussie for Warrens. Warren is a very unusual surname in this area I would think they would all be connected in some way I have only found 2/3 references to this name in the whole area.
1 Robert Warren miller died 1835 age 85 wife Janet McBean.
2 John Warren miller Kingussie died 1864.
I have found a marriage for William McBain to a Christine McDonald in 1784 only McBain/McDonald marriage I can find, however I have found frequent marriages between a husband and a sister of a dead wife, sister moves in to look after children and nature takes over.

I cant find anything on William, if the William/Christine connection is correct William was living in Kerrowmeanoch which is between Raits and Kingussie.

If you think any of my suggestions are interesting enough to follow up post your email and I will send you copies of everything I have.

lynn
Researching
SANSON anywhere, MCBAIN inverness/aberdeenshire/glasgow,
KELLY ireland/glasgow, BELL ireland/campsie/glasgow

McBsofKingussie
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:58 pm

Re: Alvie parish in Badenoch

Post by McBsofKingussie » Thu Jan 14, 2021 2:14 pm

Hi Lynn,

Thank you so much for your prompt and helpful reply.
As you will see below, you have directly solved a part of the puzzle.
(the information re missing parish records may also explain the absence of marriage and birth records)

There is a lot of varied information in there which I'm trying to correlate with what I already have.
Inevitably it raises a number of questions and clarifications which I hope you can help to resolve.
Some of them are general and others specific to the McBains.

1. Generally, was there much movement of people into Alvie/Kingussie in the mid 1700s?
Is there a high probability that William and Helen were from the same parish?
I've found 2 x other Helens born in Inverness and Abernethy around about the same time and about 20 x Williams in Inverness-shire (mostly Inverness, Dores and Ardersier). How likely is it that one of them moved to the parish in the 1770s or thereabout?

Like you, I think the Helen born in Aban in 1750 is by far the most likely.

2. I'm not sure I fully understand the suggestion re the name Arrach. I think you are saying that the name Cameron could be replaced with Arrach on the basis that the Arrach family lived in the only house in Aban from at least 1538 and were still there in 1750. Is that correct?

3. Your idea that William may have married Helen's sister is intriguing. I can't find any siblings for Helen from Aban, but the Helen from Inverness had a younger sister called Christian. Hence my query in point 1.

4. The Warrens. You've tied up an important loose end! Robert Warren was my great, great, great grandfather. His daughter Anne was my great great grandmother. The John Warren you refer to was Anne's brother. Interestingly, the only birth record I can find on Scotland's People for Robert is in 1739 which would make him 95 when he died in 1835. This seems unlikely but is it possible the grave stone has the wrong age?

Generally it seems there were quite a few Warrens around Alvie and Inverness-shire from the early 1700s. Sometimes spelt Warrend.

5. Other possible Alvie leads from Scotland's People: there is another Helen McDonald born in Dec 1738. Parents John and Katherine. Possibly too old but do you have anything on her? Also two Williams born in 1756 and 1757. The birth dates don't fit with Helen unless it was not unusual for the husband to be 6 or 7 years younger.

Once again, many thanks. You have solved one problem and opened up a number of intriguing leads.

Iain

ps. I raised a similar request on RootsChat to the one you responded to on here. I know you are also that site so please ignore it.

Spacot
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:03 am
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: Alvie parish in Badenoch

Post by Spacot » Thu Jan 14, 2021 5:35 pm

Hi Iain,

I should perhaps explain my interest my paternal grandmother was a McBain from Kingussie family originally from Alvie. When I started to delve into her family I found so many McBain/Bean/Bayne/Bane's from Alvie I 1st had to record them all between 1700 and 1800 to sort out the various families due to the gaps in the record. There are no records before early 1700's the reason I have been told is the 1715 rebellion. Once the Hanoverian troops has squashed the Jacobite's they went round the parishes collecting the records to look for family members of the rebels so the Kirk Session hid the books and often lost them.
1. in the 17th century when many fermtoons were coalescing into villages the Duke of Gordon built Kingussie and Insh for his weavers so a lot of the workers from the fermtoons moved there, consequently there was a lot of movement between the 2 parishes. The other Parish they moved between is Rothiemurches. Not many moved much farther in the 1700's, I have found some in the 1800's who moved to and from Laggan, Abernethy, and Duthil.
2 I think the transcriber miss transcribed Arrach as Cameron if you look at the actual record it could be almost anything.
Aban is part of Dalraddy, Mentioned in KS record in 1770 "Donald Grant in Abban in the lands of Dalraddy"' earliest mention is in 1749. 1748 Alexander 'Buie' McDonald in Aban married Jean Arrach. Alexander McDonald also known as Saunders Buie tenant in Aban with brother Peter and nephew Sandy Shaw the cooper. in 1773 he is tenant in Cairet Na kyle and birleyman, he also contributed to the payment of the fox hunter.
3 Not all babies baptisms made it to the record. I have been told that most were baptized at home minister gave clerk a note of them and he wrote them in the book, some got lost on the way. how true that is I don't know I do know a lot are missing.
4 Ages are very fluid back then My several times great grandfather Finlay McBain was only 45 when he died according to his grave stone but he was at least 75 if not older?
As the gravestones are yours I will give the full transcriptions
Robt Warren miller Kingussie, 14.2.1838 85, w Janet McBain 27.12.1835 80,ys John erected, gda Ann Warren 22.5,18[52] 12.
John Warren miller Kingussie 4.6.1864 63, w Christina Kennedy d Nairn 14,5.1892 73 da Annie 22.5.1852 12, s Robt d Nairn 12.2.1900 63
I don't think the earlier Hellen is relevant a note in the Kirk session for 1748 is monies given to Hellen McDonald who goes on all fours.
Only Janet of right age is Jannet McBain daughter to Evan and Katherine McLean born Dalraddy 1756.

Any more info let me know, one of my obsessions.
Lynn
Researching
SANSON anywhere, MCBAIN inverness/aberdeenshire/glasgow,
KELLY ireland/glasgow, BELL ireland/campsie/glasgow

McBsofKingussie
Posts: 3
Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2021 4:58 pm

Re: Alvie parish in Badenoch

Post by McBsofKingussie » Fri Jan 15, 2021 4:28 pm

Hi Lynn,

Fascinating stuff, thank you. Its helping me add a bit of colour and reality to the bare information on Scotland's People.

I'd be really interested to know a bit more about your own McBain line in the 1700s and how far back you've managed to go.

A specific request:

I'm trying to nail down John McBain/McBean who I think may have been my gg grandfather's brother.

What I've got is;
He was a farmer who lived in Avid?/Aoid? in Kingussie. (I can't make out the handwriting).
I think he may have owned/leased a small piece of farmland

He married Isabel McPherson in Kingussie.
Confusingly, there are two marriage entries for them.
One in 1804 and another in 1805. Could be different couples with exactly the same names but Avid/Aoid is mentioned in both.

The naming patterns of their children gives a strong hint that John's parents were William and Helen (first son is William, second daughter is Helen/Nelly).Their second son, and last child, was John, born in 1825.

It seems that Isabel died between 1825 and 1833 because John remarried in 1833. He married Margaret McPherson who is not Isabel's sister but given the number of McPhersons in Alvie/Kingussie, could well have been an unmarried relative.
John and Margaret (both shown as 50 but probably nearer 55) appear with young John (15) in the 1841 census living in Kingussie.

It seems John died between 1841 and 1851 because he does not appear in the 1851 census.
Margaret died, a widow, in 1862 aged 74

Although there were many McBains/McPhersons in the area at the time, I'm hoping you might unearth a golden nugget that will give me a link to my gg grandfather Donald McBain in Kingussie or to Donald's parents, William and Helen.

I find this dialogue really helpful but please do let me know when you've had enough!

Iain

Spacot
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2007 11:03 am
Location: Wigtownshire

Re: Alvie parish in Badenoch

Post by Spacot » Fri Jan 15, 2021 7:06 pm

Hi Iain,

With this lockdown I am delighted to be able to indulge in my favourite hobby.
1I don't think John is in Avid I looked at the marriage and he lived in Mile-house of ? I think the 1st letter is an N not an A so it is Mile-house of Noid which if you look on the O.S. map 1874 you will see Mile-house of Nuide just below and to the left of Brae Ruthven where my Grannie was born, My great grandfather was a shepherd there his brother was the gamekeeper.

I have been unable to find any trace of John but it is highly probable you are correct and he is a brother. It is just typical that the info you need is slap bang in the middle of the void in the records, from my knowledge of the McBean's in Alvie your William was probably the William born 1756 to William McBain and Isabel McIntosh in Gort Na Chreif. this was a small fermtoun on the Gordon estate of Kinrara which was 'cleared' in late1700's early 1800's to make way for a deer park and landscaped gardens.
My family.
Earliest Evan McBain in Gort Na Chreif father of Evan circa 1690, Donald circa 1695, John 1706 Finlay circa 1885 married to Janet McDonald [These ages were worked out from birth of 1st child less 30 yrs]. Finlay= Janet Gort Na Chreif Angus 1714, Evan 1714, Katherine 1714 triplets born before wedding, then Cristian 1719, Donald 1721 William 1726 married Isabel McIntosh in Gort Na Chreif.
William = Janet children:- Janet 1743, William 1756, Alexander 1765, Finlay circa 1770 [he died 1845 age 75 according to gravestone]
Finlay married 3 times his 3rd wife Mary McDonald was mother to my line, Finlay a weaver = Mary son William married to Janet McBean Their son John married Catherine Smith, there son Laughlan married Georgina McGregor and had my Grannie Catherine Smith McBain.

It would appear if my guess work is accurate, we are related through William and Janet McIntosh.

Let me know if you want more info.
Lynn
Researching
SANSON anywhere, MCBAIN inverness/aberdeenshire/glasgow,
KELLY ireland/glasgow, BELL ireland/campsie/glasgow

Post Reply