Leith 1790s - a close, and bits of land.....

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Sat Aug 20, 2005 11:11 am

I have a copy of a document from 1792 which I have been working through and I would very much appreciate some help or suggestions with a few terms therein. (!)

A "close" in Leith is mentioned - it looks like Marson or Marion Close Vennel and is stated as "leading from the High Street to the pier" - any thoughts? A search on
http://www2.ebs.hw.ac.uk/edweb/STREETS/
hasn't turned up anything which looks obvious.
(I only have a not-very-clear NAS photocopy of the document so no digital version of the words in question to upload. Could scan the words and upload if anyone thinks that would help.)

Also in the document different areas of land are referred to which I've looked up in the Concise Scots Dictionary:

Tenement: land held in tenure and built on

Shade/Shed: a strip of land, a distinct or separate piece of ground

...but can anyone elucidate further on the different terms? Do either of the terms suggest the size or area of the land? e.g. Is a tenement larger than a shade by definition? Or would the land be referred to as a shade if NOT built on and a tenement if built on? Any further clarificaiton anyone can offer would be great!

Best wishes
Lesley

m

Davie · Post by **Davie** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 9:30 pm

Greetin's Lesley,
I still live in a tenement in Glasgow which is over 100 years old and to enter my flat you have to walk up the close.
There is a great guided walk round Leith every Saturday exept when the Festival is on.
Which is now, but it will finish next week
I was through there last week.
My Great Uncle had a Saddlers in Constitution Street and Water's Close is still there, which takes you down to the waahter.
Auld Reekie has some great guided tours.
This wee site will give you an Idea of the style of housing.
Electric Scotland is good for this kind of thing.
The wee drawing, I think is what you are looking for.
http://www.electricscotland.com/history/leith/8.htm

Awrabest
Davie

m

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:46 pm

Hello Davie
Thanks for your suggestions. It would seem that in days past a tenement was not what we now think of one as being. In the context I was referring to it meant primarily a plot of land, which was then built on from what from I gather. No doubt this eventually evolved into the meaning of tenement as we know it today. In the 1792 document it would appear to be a reference to an area of land, not a building.

I'm well aware of what a "close" is. I was interested in that particular close - Marson or Marion Close Vennel, which was mentioned in the document which I'm pretty sure must have disappeared a long time ago. I just hoped someone on the forum might have heard of it and would be able to clarify its name.

Lesley

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:59 pm

Hi Lesley,

The online "Dictionary of the Scots Language" is often useful.
--
http://www.dsl.ac.uk/dsl/
--
Jack

m

Post by **AndrewP** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:10 pm

Hi Lesley,

I've had a look at various old maps online and so far have found no sign of Marson or Marion Close Vennel or the like. Not only that, I have never seen "High Street" on a map of Leith. Even if High Street is to be taken as one of the main roads in Leith, rather than one actually called High Street, and looking for a lane leading to a pier - no obvious sign of that either.

I wonder if this place is in Newhaven (in Leith parish) rather than Leith itself. My reasoning being Leith's shoreline has been dominated by docks rather than piers, even going back to the time you are looking at.

Back to the old maps...

All the best,

Andrew Paterson

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:11 pm

Hi Jack
Great site, thanks! Didn't know about that one. Gives far more detail than my Concise Scots dictionary!

Best wishes
Lesley

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:40 pm

Hi Andrew
Thanks for the suggestion but I'm pretty sure this is in North Leith. Here is the "close" in question in context. (Question marks denote bits I'm not 100% sure I've got right yet or a missing word.)

"....upon the said piece of ground and whole pertinents as also all and hail that piece of waste ground lying in the Town of Leith on the north side of the water thereof presently possessed by me bounded betwixt the Gavell?[Gable?possibly] Of that Brick? Smithy? Belonging to William Brough Merchant in Leith and presently possessed by Adam Johnston Smith in North Leith on the North the lands belonging to me on the south a little house belonging to John Syme Shipbuilder on the East and Marion? Close? Vennel leading from the High Street to the pier on the west parts with the ? of the mutual dyke between ? the said John Syme’s property and the said part/piece? of ground but providing and declaring that ..." etc.

Best wishes
Lesley

Davie · Post by **Davie** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 5:25 pm

Hi Jack
I did not know the SND was on line.
I have a copy unbound here in the flat.
Some of the pages are still uncut.
It has always been a pain in the chorus to use.
So guid call again Jack.
Interesting to see the term Tenementer.
I have never seen any of Arnold Schwarzenegger films , but I thought his character would have been something more dashing.
And I am not in the least surprised that my spellchecker recognises Schwarzenegger and not Tenementer.
And Lesley
I must admit, I thought it odd that someone frae Bathgate did not know what a close was.
Your post was really interesting having a wee bit of history and geography.
I had a look through some of my old Scottish books with photographs and drawings of closes.
Annan has a nice one of Old closes and streets of Glasgow.
http://www.edinphoto.org.uk/PP/pp_annan ... lasgow.htm
Most of the old closes are very similar to the ones they have in Edinburgh.
However, the size of area you are talking about would be much wider, i think.
And I have a copy of the tome Edinburgh in front of me.
It has paintings by John Fulleylove, described by Rosaline Masson, published in 1904.
Chapter IV is Stories of the closes, the wynds, and the lands.
There are three prints in the section, one of John Knox’s House in the High Street, One of the Cannongate Tollbooth., and one of Lady Stairs Close.

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/david.henn ... y_cen4.htm

Though the print from the book depicts a much earlier scene, which I have just scanned.

http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/dauvit ... pg&.src=ph

I noticed that Tollbooth Wynd runs into SandPort Place.
I will be through for the Scottish Sale in George Street the Morra.and then down to McNaughtan's in Leith Walk.
They are good on this sort of thing.
I will ask and see if they can assist you.
Awrabest
Davie

m

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 8:23 pm

Hello Jack, Andrew & Davie
Having been at NAS today to look at the original document again as the photocopy is not clear, I'm now pretty sure it says "Narrow Close Vennel"

Not quite as picturesque as Marion or even Marson..... ho hum.

Its mentioned twice in the document. This is its other appearance:

"...Bounded by the said house on the North, by the sea on the South, by the vennel commonly called the Narrow Close on the East and by a Dyke once ? house belonging to the deceased James R Carlson? Shipbuilder in North Leith on the west together with the houses shades and others built upon the said piece of ground and whole pertinents as also all and hail that piece of waste ground..."etc.

In this context shade would appear to be a shed as we know it today - some sort of building.

Thank you all for your help and if you ever come across a map of Leith from the 1790s with "Narrow Close" on it, please let me know!! I've been to the SCRAN website (www.scran.ac.uk) and they have some great maps of the Edinburgh & Leith area from 1804, 1813 & 1822 but as most of the smaller streets aren't named I suspect the wee close may have to remain a mystery ...maybe, unless I get into the sasines...

Best wishes
Lesley

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Tue Aug 23, 2005 9:12 pm

Hi Lesley,

Maybe the close never had an "official" name but was just known locally as the "Narrow Close" - for that's what it was?

Jack