Is Scotland's Landscape Being Ruined? - Rant

The History and Geography of Auld Scotia

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Pandabean
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Is Scotland's Landscape Being Ruined? - Rant

Post by Pandabean » Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:57 am

Last weekend I was watching the TV program Landward and they were talking about Power lines running from Beauly in the highlands to Denny in the lowlands. Havent we got enough powerlines in our landscape!? I go hillwalking from time to time and I hate seeing the beautiful landscape ruined by these huge power lines.

It's not only power lines that are ruining it, its wind farms. Imagine the sight of walking up a hill and coming over the rise to see the next valley dominated by huge wind turbines! :roll:

Also seeing these planted pine forests all in rectangular patches dotted over the landscape as well as the scars they leave behind when the area is deforested.

I understand that we need these wind farms to provide power but they could come up with better alternatives.


Excuse me for my rant but I couldn't find anyone else to rant to at the moment. [soapbox]
Andy
[size=75]
[b]McDonald[/b]
[b]Greenlees & Fairnie[/b] (Musselburgh area)
[b]Johnston, Whitson, Whitecross, Runciman [/b] (Haddingtonshire)
[b]Rutherford [/b](Dumbartonshire, Airth & Larbert)
[b]Ross, Stevenson & Robb[/b](Falkirk)[/size]

SarahND
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Post by SarahND » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:56 am

Hi Andy,
The real problem is that people are using w-a-y more electricity than they need-- wasting much of it. So naturally the power companies are scrambling for solutions. If we all had to come up with our own electricity and therefore were directly aware of our consumption, the amount used would plummet, I'm sure. Most people are totally unaware of what uses the most electricity-- heating anything with it! If you turn on an electric heater, iron, etc. and watch the meter... it's appalling how much is used.

We have noticed that in Europe most people heat their houses with electricity-- no wonder the need for it is skyrocketing! But yes, other ways of heating have their own problems and objectionable by-products: coal, oil, natural gas, even wood if everyone is using it. So what to do? Lower the consumption! If everyone used only low-energy lightbulbs and insulated their houses properly, that would be a start.

Here in France, we are fortunate in being able to live in the countryside, with our own electrical system and plenty of wood for heating. At the moment we are using about 500-600 watts a day running computers, modem & lights. If our fridge were electric, that would probably bump it up to 2.5 kilowatts or so, less than a tenth of what a household "needs" in the U.S. We have a switch on the line that goes to the modem and it gets switched off the moment it is not being used. Computers get unplugged when not in use, as does the TV (which is only used when our kids are here anyway) so there are no little power lights running all the time.

When we were in Scotland, we were imagining ourselves rebuilding one of those old stone houses and using one of the many streams rushing down the hill for electricity! All that water power going to waste! And if each house had its own tiny wee hydro-electric power collector in the stream... you wouldn't even notice them! And a small, one-household wind generator is hardly noticeable either :wink:

Well, it seems I've been delivering my own rant in your space, Andy! [soapbox] I'll step down now :D

All the best,
Sarah

DavidWW
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Post by DavidWW » Tue Feb 13, 2007 10:23 am

An interesting exercise............

Think back as far as you can, - round pinned plugs in the UK would be good, and picture where you were living at the time, and how many power sockets there were in each room.

Now think of any house built in the last few years and how many power sockets there are, yet there will still be adaptors and extensions.

Just a simple way of demonstrating how our power usage has increased.

How many reading this regularly leave TVs etc. on standby? Switch off the TVs etc. instead and a large power station could be taken off line.

In other words if we want to continue our present lifestyle, then we need, firstly, to economise in a major way as regards our power usage, - it's quite amazing the reduction that will result from not using standby, low energy lightbulbs, better insulation, etc., etc., but that is still unlikely to be enough.

Beyond that we then need to accept that the power we still will be consuming leads to certain consequences, all expensive.

Firstly, we've several hundred years' supply left in the UK of deep mined, high quality coal, but we no longer have a deep mined coal industry, so would have to spend several £b restarting that industry, - unfortunately it's incredibly expensive to re-open abandoned pits,- currently it's regarded as uneconomic. Coal from Australia etc. ?, - aye weel, if we're worried about the environmental implication of flying in broccolli from Bolivia .....................

There's plenty of "clean" coal burning technologies now mature, but, guess what?, they cost a lot more than the coal fired power stations of the 1950s, - think along the lines of double (in real terms).

Nuclear is an option, but are we prepared to leave the clean up legacy to future generations?, not least the cost. Never mind the fact that we're now in the position in the UK where we no longer have the expertise in this country to design and build a new generation of nuclear power stations, so we'd be at the mercy of major US contractors.

Oil?, - we're already back to being a net importer!

Gas?, - I shudder to think of how many trillions and trillions of cubic feet that were flared (burnt) back in the 60s and 70s and into the 80s out on the oil production rigs, before folk started thinking, - "Hey, if we take this on shore, clean it up, we can use it to generate power!"........... - the "dash to gas" under privatisation of the electricity industry in the UK.(There's a school of opinion, with which, as a chemical engineer I have lot of sympathy, that the daftest possible thing to do with gas is to burn it to produce electricity, as opposed to regarding it as an invaluable feedstock for the chemical industry .............)

But now we're a net importer of gas. Anyone fancy relying on Russia and various parts of the former USSR to keep our lights burning over the next few decades :!: :shock:

And there's wind and tidal power. Any major tidal scheme is going to have a tremendous environmental impact, but might just be one way out of the present situation, given acceptance of the cost and environmental implications

Wind energy's great but don't let the enthusiasts hide the fact that there has to a backup source for the times when the wind either isn't blowing or is blowing too hard (the wind turbines have to be shut down, otherwise there's major risk of damage), and that reserve has to be what's called "spinning reserve", i.e. power stations that are poised to supply electricity with only a couple of hours warning maximum, - the "spinning" bit comes from the fact that the the turbines and generators are actually spinning on a tick over basis, - BTW there's a complication here that it takes several days to bring a coal fired power station up to "spinning reserve" status. And, guess what, "spinning reserve" comes with a cost !!

Many of the best areas for wind power generation, on-shore and off-shore, are in remote areas, which raises the question of how to transfer that power to where it's needed, which is where I come back to the question which sparked off this [rant] :wink: , the pylons.

But that's no problem as long as we're prepared to accept the massive cost of putting the transmission lines underground, and it's not just the initial installation cost, - it's the maintenance cost. If there's a fault above ground, access is straightforward, - underground is something else again.

BTW, in the main, forget storage of wind generated power for the moment, - it's a distinct possibility in a few decades, but, with one exception, the technologies are only just beginning to develop.

The exception is pumped storage, - wind power installations are run flat out regardless of demand, and the excess power used to pump water from a low level to a high level reservoir. When the wind is too low or too high, the stored water is then used in a hydropower mode to generate power, but the overal efficiency is greatly decreased, i.e. , again, it costs!! (There are currently a number of highly successful hydroelectric power stations that make use of pumped storage.)

Hydroelectric power? The majority of the major possible schemes in the UK were built in the decades immediately after WWII. There still is some potential, but at major environmental cost.

Solar power? Ask me again, if I'm still about, in 25 years ........... :cry:

I hold no brief for any particular solution, but I do argue strongly that this is a perfect example of the saying "there's no such thing as a free lunch" :!:

If we want the life style that we have, then even with extensive energy saving measures, and those themselves carry a major initial cost, then we need to be aware of the fact that, whatever is chosen as the national strategy (or is that an oxymoron in the UK :?: [5 cups] ) there will be substantial costs that will naturally be reflected in the cost we pay per kW.........

BTW, were the decision taken today, it would easily be 10 years, possibly nearer 15 years before a new nuclear power station was up and running.

Given the extensive planning issues involved, not that much less for a new, economically sized coal fired station, say a minimum of 8 years for a 5,400 MW station (6 x 900 MW units). Interesting little story here, - the UK used to be at the forefront of coal fired technology, witness the two stations in the UK, consisting of 6 x 660MW units, Ferrybridge and I forget the other.

In the late 70s/early 80s there was a well developed programme to develop a 900MW unit, initiated by the CEGB along with Scottish partners, - there's still economy of scale in moving up from 660MW to 900MW ...... but privatisation knocked that on the head, - no central R&D, never mind the destruction of the deep mined coal industry, but let's not get into that :!:

As you'll appreciate, I have strong opinions on the subject, but the strongest of all is that, whichever way the UK chooses to go, there are costs, sometimes direct in terms of £, sometimes short term, sometimes long term, sometimes indirect in terms of the effect on the scenery in Scotland, - there could be an expensive consequence here of film makers no longer using the Highlands. OK, it can be argued that there will be plenty beautiful glens not disfigured by lines of giant pylons, but those glens will be much more remote and not so easy to access from main roads ...........

TANSTAAFL !! (Robert A. Heinlein, 1966, "The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress")

[soapbox] [rant] [soapbox]

David
Last edited by DavidWW on Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.

AndrewP
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Post by AndrewP » Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:14 am

The company concerned are using green energy as a reason to justify the power lines from Beauly to Denny. The green resources (wind turbines and potentially wave power) in the far north to supply the electricity demand in the Central Belt.

All the best,

AndrewP

DavidWW
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Post by DavidWW » Tue Feb 13, 2007 12:14 pm

AndrewP wrote:The company concerned are using green energy as a reason to justify the power lines from Beauly to Denny. The green resources (wind turbines and potentially wave power) in the far north to supply the electricity demand in the Central Belt.

All the best,

AndrewP
Indeed. A "hitting the nail on the head" scenario. [woohoo]

But why is the only serious alternative being considered that of above ground transmission on land, with underground lagging way behind?

There's some strong evidence that a sub-sea cable wouldn't cost (that horrible word again :!: :evil: ) as much more as buried cables on land, never mind, believe it or not, easier to maintain, - there's over a century of expertise from the early days of sub-sea telegram cable links, and a whole major industry out there today involved in the maintenance of sub-sea fibre optic cables, via which many of you will be reading this !!

In other words, down the West Coast from the Outer and Inner Hebrides with various mainland and island generation facilities feeding into the link, which could not only be to the Central Belt in Scotland, but beyond to Cumbria (thereby into the English and Welsh transmission networks) and Ulster (thereby to the all-Ireland transmission network).

And there's several instances of such highly successful sub-sea power links and networks in Europe, not least simple interconnectors between Scotland and Ireland, and the long-standing cross-channel, or should that be trans-La Manche :wink:, link between the UK and France; but also the quite complex Estlink project, in terms of the countries linked, which connects the Baltic states into the existing network of links, some sub-sea, between Sweden and Denmark; Norway and Denmark; Sweden and Germany; Denmark and Germany; Sweden, Poland and Germany; and Sweden and Finland.

The reason these links work, - both ways BTW, - is that consumption peaks are different in the connected areas, so that peaks can be trimmed as regards local generation capacity in different areas by using generation capacity in other areas ..............

See also http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/16595/

Retires to his bunker muttering darkly [rant] [soapbox] [rant] [soapbox]

David

SarahND
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Post by SarahND » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:08 pm

I think the main point here is, if we are going to maintain a lifestyle that consumes lots of energy (and I would agree that, although we can conserve and help some, it will not be enough) we are going to have to figure out a cleaner way to do it. And this will involve (gasp!) costs... But thinking it through first will certainly help find a doable solution. I like the idea of the undersea cable-- out of sight! I hate those pylons also :evil: And the idea of saving the energy from high wind times by pumping the water up, then using the hydro power when the wind dies down is a brilliant one. If it costs now to implement, it will cost less down the road in cleaning up the mess caused by other ways of generating electricity.

I'd still rather take a walk in hills with wind turbines on them than next to a nuclear power plant...

Regards,
Sarah

DavidWW
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Post by DavidWW » Tue Feb 13, 2007 1:46 pm

In 10 to 20 years from now there may well be technically feasible and economic large scale battery storage options (see recent New Scientist magazine article), - there are currently several existing and proposed projects at the scale of maximum a few MW, but what's needed is technology that can cope with several hundred MW, maybe even a GW or two :!:

David

SarahND
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Post by SarahND » Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:14 pm

Yes, the problem is always the storage, whether you are using solar panels and the sun goes down, or wind generators and the air is suddenly still... But battery technology has come a long way, just in the 15 years we have been on our own electrical system. My husband has been coveting some new ones that don't mind freezing or being left for long stretches of time and don't emit noxious gasses, etc. I'm sure similar progress is being made on large scale storage as well.

In the meantime, why are manufacturers making all appliances with little digital clocks on them so that you are forced to leave them plugged in and eating up the electricity? I shudder to think of how many of those little lights are going in the average house today, on everything from coffee machines to stoves, to cd players, etc... And it's all because of someone's silly design ideas-- do we really need to know what time it is in every corner of our houses? And do we really need to put all our appliances on timers so that we don't need to turn them on manually? Uh oh, another rant coming... Better stop now! :lol:

Regards,
Sarah

AnneM
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Post by AnneM » Tue Feb 13, 2007 7:13 pm

Someone gave me recently a link to the petition against road pricing and was shocked when I said I would not sign it! The sad truth which governments including our own are barely willing to articulate is that we will all have to use less energy and pay more for the energy we use, whether in our homes or in transport. I'm not sure what the way forward is but these seem to me to be inescapable truths if the cost is not to be the future for our children and grandchildren.

Anne
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Ruining the world?

Post by Guest » Tue Feb 13, 2007 9:01 pm

Perhaps it's time to take off the thick glasses and take a distant view.

Ruining the Scottish landscape, the hills and the glens?
The Scottish landscape is bare and rugged and beautiful because we have chopped down and cleared away the old Caledonian forest long since. Some of the Western Isles which today are practically treeless show lots of evidence of forests at the bottom of the peat bogs. So your little dram is flavoured by the waste product of human activity.
The Norfolk Broads are the direct result of early industrial activity and are not a natural feature. So holiday in an abandoned industrial site.

Global warming? Yes, it is getting warmer, and the sea level is rising. Only a few hundred years ago, Greenland had a thriving population. They died out when it got colder (one of history's truly sad episodes!). So what goes up went down first. And your ancestors probably walked here when the North Sea was dry land.

So when you get all proud of recycling 5 bags of refuse a week, try producing only half a bag a week or less. And when you cycle 50 miles or more a day, getting to work and not as a flab reducing routine on a superbike, let me know. Then I'll applaud.

We have wind turbines down here (here being reclaimed bog, swamp and unproductive briar at one time) and I like them.

Dave
by way of being his rant!