James Cheyne - putative father of Helen Cheyne

[SarahND]

Hi Annette,
I remember seeing that site way back at the beginning of this thread Jim Cheyne of Arizona has put in some serious work! I'll bet he'd be glad to know how Helen fits in the group, since he has obviously been going through the censuses and noting down every Cheyne he finds.

Cheers,
Sarah

P.S. I'm so pleased to see that this family is getting cleared up-- even Margaret Kennedy! I've been away and now my computer is very sick, so I'm not really back yet.

[AnneM]

Hi all

Not much to add on James Cheyne except that the James Cheyne who is born in Millbrex seems to die quite young in the 1870s.

Anne

[imlincs]

Hello again

Now that you have all solved the mysteries of Helen Cheyne's maternal family, here is a summary of what I have on the only real candidate I have as her father.

I have also sent this info to Jim Cheyne in Arizona who seems to be interested in the Cheynes of Haddo House.

James Cheyne born Methlick 1862, son of James Cheyne, coachman, and Mary Gibbs.

James was employed as a groom at Haddo House Stables Methlick in 1881.

He joined the City of Glasgow Police Force on September 29th 1884 as a probationary police constable. By 1891 he was a Constable 1st Class, a bachelor, living at 48 Nelson St. On 3/9/1895, aged 33, by now a Detective Officer living at 53 Parnie St, Glasgow, James married Annie Russell, 21, a Domestic Servant of Townhill, Dunfermline, at 69 George St, Glasgow. The marriage certificate verifies through his parents’ name and occupation that this is the same James Cheyne from Methlick. At some time in the 1890s he also lived at 45 College St. In 1901 Annie Russell is living with her mother and Russell siblings and son William Cheyne aged 2 in Green Side, Dunfermline while James is still in Glasgow, 29 Chisholm St, apparently living alone and now employed as a Private Detective.

He died at 657 Eaglesham Road, Glasgow (then a TB hospital) aged 66 on 7/10/1929 listed as a Law Clerk and still married to Ann Russell.

His police career is as follows:

29th Sept 84 Probationary Constable
28th Nov 84 4th Class Constable (23 shillings)
26th Sept 85 3rd Class Constable (24 shillings)
11th Oct 86 2nd Class Constable (25 shillings)
10th Oct 87 1st Class Constable (26 shillings)
7th Feb 90 Merit Constable (27shillings)
12th Mar 94 Detective (32 shillings)
11th Nov 99 Resigned (40 shillings)

He seems to have been an exemplary policeman if not a high flier (at a time when it appears that half the Glasgow police constables seem to have been dismissed for being drunk on duty!) with a number of reported arrests to his name and quite an athlete to boot.

Against him is the fact that he joined the City of Glasgow Police Force in September 1884 listing his former occupation as groom (which he was in 1881), making him difficult to place at St John’s Wells as a farm servant in October 1885. However he is the only James Cheyne of around the right age from around the right place with any police connection that I have been able to find.

Perhaps he popped back up to Haddo House on a family visit to celebrate his promotion in September 1885 and met up with Christina but why would he reappear for the birth in June 1886 and pretend to be living at St John's Wells?

In 1881 there was a John Cheyne aged 19 born Millbrex employed as a farm servant at St John's Wells but I haven't been able to find a link between him and James.

Anyone any ideas?

Regards to everyone

Ian
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[nelmit]

Hi Ian,

Finding the right James Cheyne is going to prove difficult (and perhaps expensive) but I see you've been busy so maybe you can prove or disprove the James Cheyne detective.

You have one vital piece of evidence of THE James Cheyne and that's his signature on Nellie's birth entry!! So..............do you have his signature on the marriage entry to Ann Russell or any of the police documents that may be available to do a comparison?

Regards,
Annette

[imlincs]

Hello Annette

Yet something else I hadn't thought of!

Yes I have (digital) copies of the birth and marriage certifiicates.

To my untutored eye the signatures do not look the same.

If I post them (Am I allowed to?) is there someone out there skilled enough to make a judgement? Obviously there are nine years between the signatures and the MC one isn't very clear.

Regards,

Ian
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[nelmit]

Hello Annette

Yet something else I hadn't thought of!

Yes I have (digital) copies of the birth and marriage certifiicates.

To my untutored eye the signatures do not look the same.

If I post them (Am I allowed to?) is there someone out there skilled enough to make a judgement? Obviously there are nine years between the signatures and the MC one isn't very clear.

Regards,

Ian +++

Post away Ian and I'm sure you'll get lots of opinions.

Regards,
Annette

[AndrewP]

It is unusual for the bride and groom's signatures to be on the marriage certificate. They normally sign the marriage schedule at the wedding ceremony. The schedule is then taken to the registar, usually a day or two later, and the registrar transcribes the information from the schedule into the register. There are of course exceptions where the bride and groom's signatures are on the certificate.

All the best,

AndrewP

[nelmit]

It is unusual for the bride and groom's signatures to be on the marriage certificate. They normally sign the marriage schedule at the wedding ceremony. The schedule is then taken to the registar, usually a day or two later, and the registrar transcribes the information from the schedule into the register. There are of course exceptions where the bride and groom's signatures are on the certificate.

All the best,

AndrewP

Of course - in that case how about on William's birth entry (that's assuming he registered it). See I knew it could prove expensive!!!!

Regards,
Annette

[SarahND]

Hi Ian and all,

I decided to have a look at all Cheynes affiliated with the police in 1901. See if anyone can get some ideas from this:

1901
4 Morrin Sq, Glasgow Robertson Memorial, Blackfriars, Lanarkshire
William Cheyne, 32, Head, born Turiff, Aberdeenshire, Inspector of Police
Helen M Cheyne, 16, Wife, born Mertoun, Berwickshire
James A Cheyne, 5, son, born Glasgow, scholar
Thomas H Cheyne, 4, son, born Glasgow
Isobel M S Cheyne, 2, Daur, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
George Cheyne, 1, son, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scholar

1901
Police Station, Hamilton, Lanarkshire
Charles Cheyne, 33, Head, born Fyvie, Aberdeenshire, Police Sergeant
Margaret Cheyne, 33, Wife, born Biggar, Lanarkshire
Charles George Cheyne, 4, Son, born Hamilton, Lanarkshire, Scholar
Margaret Spence Cheyne, 2, Daur, born Hamilton, Lanarkshire
William Elrick, 26, Boarder, born Peterhead, Aberdeenshire, Police Constable
Robert Tennion, 22, Boarder, born Keith, Banffshire, Police Constable

Going back with these two chaps:

1891
Constab: Buildings, Jedburgh, Roxburghshire
George Dickson, 33, Head, born Beath, Fifeshire, Police Constable
Thomas Currie, 28, Boarder, born Ireland, Police Constable
John McDonald, 22, Boarder, born Cawdor, Nairnshire, Police Constable
John Morrison, 21, Boarder, born Alvah, Banffshire, Police Constable
William Cheyne, 21, Boarder, born Turiff, Aberdeenshire, Police Constable

1891
Braehead, Carnwath, Lanarkshire
Annie H Weir, 36, Head, born Carnwath, Lanarkshire, Fancy Knitting & Crocheting
Alexander Weir, 10, Son, born Carnwath, Lanarkshire, scholar
Annie R Weir, 5, Daur, born Carnwath, Lanarkshire
Charles Cheyne, 23, Lodger, born Aberdeenshire, Police Constable

Both William and Charles are going to be a bit young in 1886... but still possible.
Charles is a farm servant in Fyvie in 1881, which sounds good from what we know:

1881
Cow Hill Farm, Fyvie, Aberdeenshire
Charles Cheyne, 13, Servant, born Fyvie, Aberdeen, Farm Servant

William is still at home with his parents, a scholar. I really think he is too young...

1881
Touchar, Monquihitter, Aberdeenshire
George Cheyne, 34, Head, born Monquhitter, Aberdeenshire, Farmer of 10 Acres
Mary Cheyne, 34, Wife, born Marnoch, Banffshire, Farmers Wife
William Cheyne, 11, Son, born Turiff, Aberdeenshire, Scholar
Jane Cheyne, 7, Daughter, born Turiff, Aberdeenshire, Scholar
George Cheyne, 6, Son, born Monquhitter, Aberdeenshire, Scholar
Elizabeth Cheyne, 3, Daughter, born Monquhitter, Aberdeenshire
Mary Cheyne, 1, Daughter, born Monquhitter, Aberdeenshire

There is also this one, born England, although he doesn't seem very likely:

1881
37 So Albion St (Police Barracks) Glasgow Blackfriars, Lanarkshire
John Chenay, 38, born England, Sergeant of Police

Charles appears to be the illegitimate son of Agnes George. He was born 10 Sep 1867 in Fyvie. In 1871 he is with his grandmother Jane George in Fyvie. She is 73 years old and has a houseful of grandchildren, each with a different surname

So... no link with the James born Methlick, as far as we know (although we don't know who Charles' father was).

Not sure I have got us anywhere, but at least I did find a Cheyne who was a farm servant in the Fyvie area and then later a police sergeant!

Cheers,
Sarah

[imlincs]

Hello again

I've now posted the BCs of Helen Cheyne and William Cheyne and the MC of James Cheyne and Annie Russell. I hope they'll appear around here sometime soon by whatever magic process that happens.

It looks to me as though the MC may have been signed by the parties - "Annie Russell" looks distinctly different from the surrounding text.

The "James Cheyne" of the MC and William's BC look similar but, at first glance, the signature on Helen's BC doesn't look the same (to me). The initial "J" is quite different. At second glance however there is some similarity in the "Cheyne" in each case, or am I just kidding myself and need to find a new James Cheyne from somewhere?

I look forward to any comments.

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1724

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1725

http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1726

URL's added by Ina
Regards,

Ian
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