SUTHERLAND, Wn/Sutherland, Christian

[nelmit]

Hi....back again.....

Just a thought but do you both feel Catherine could be Christina..dates fit in well.

Also when Christina S married in 1868 (John McLauchlan) their only daughter
was called Catherine (Kat/Kit).
Perhaps Catherine in 1851 census preferred to be called Christina?

Value your opinions.
Thankyou,
Di

Hello Di,

The 1871 census that Sarah found shows Catherine still living with her parents at Leith.

Regards,
Annette

[dimac]

Thank you.

So that Catherine is out.
Oh heavens....thought this was it after 5yrs of searching, after even staying in Dunbeath.

You have all been so great too.
My humble thanks,
Di

[grannysrock]

Hi Dimac
Struth - So many Sutherlands in that area and so many that ended up in New Zealand.
My head is hurting already - what must yours feel like after 5 years ?
Can I ask a question ? Is that your family tree on Ancestry that gives Christina's birth date
as 16 Nov 1838 ?
There is a Chirsty Sutherland born 16 Nov 1836 to a William Sutherland and Helen Sutherland. Only problem is that she was born in Dornoch, Sutherland not Latheron, Caithness.
I just wondered if you'd seen her and could discount her ?
Sally

[dimac]

Hello Sally,

thanks for your kind thoughts & help. Was feeling quite despondent when the one I
felt could have been her family turned out not to be.
No I haven't seen Helen Sutherland & Wm Sutherland's daughter nor their daughter
Christy born Dunrnock.
Feel Christina must have been either born or christened in Dunbeath, both from
our family bible & her death cert.
The parents could quite possibly come from Sutherland but then went to Caithness..
maybe only stayed a short time in Dunbeath perhaps. Christina 1838 was strongly
connected with the family of William Sutherland & Janet Sinclair from Achngorde?
Caithness while in New Zealand.
No...it isn't my tree on Ancestral...interested to learn more.

Thanks,
DiMac

[grannysrock]

Hello again Di, since you think there might be a connection to William Sutherland and Janet Sinclair, and their son Archibald Cook Sutherland, I have been looking at whatever I could find on line:

William Sutherland and Janet Sinclair of Achnagoul(e) , Latheron which appears to be
about equidistant from Dunbeath and Latheronwheel .

1841 Census Achnagoul :
William Sutherland 40
Janet Sutherland 40
Ann Sutherland 15
Henry Sutherland 14
Catharine Sutherland 12
Elizabeth Sutherland 3
Williamina Sutherland 2
James Sutherland 3 mo

There are at least 2 children not with them - one is their daughter Christina !, the other is Archibald

1851 Census
Address: Achnagoul


SUTHERLAND William Head M M 50 Farmer Of 3 Acres & Fisherman Caithness - Latheron
SUTHERLAND Janet Wife M F 57 - Caithness - Latheron
SUTHERLAND Christin Dau U F 16 Scholar Caithness - Latheron
SUTHERLAND Elizabeth Dau U F 14 Scholar Caithness - Latheron
SUTHERLAND Williamina Dau U F 12 Scholar Caithness - Latheron
SUTHERLAND James Son U M 10 Scholar Caithness - Latheron
SUTHERLAND William Son U M 7 Scholar Caithness - Latheron


1861 Census . William snr passed away and Janet is at Lower Boulttock :

1861

SUTHERLAND Janet Head W F 60 Crofter Retired Caithness - Latheron
SUTHERLAND Ann Dau U F 30 General Servant Caithness - Latheron
SUTHERLAND Williamina Dau U F 18 Domestic Servant Caithness - Latheron
SUTHERLAND William Son U M 16 Ploughman Caithness - Latheron
ROBERTSON John Grnson M 3 Caithness - Latheron
MUNRO Ann Grndau F 2 Caithness - Latheron

I haven't checked the grandkids registrations, but there are likely looking ones for a John Sutherland and Ann Sutherland born to Catherine and Ann respectively.

A James aged 19 , ploughman, along with a Christina aged 25 are servants in Latheron
with the Clyne family.

Archibald is in Argyll ( plasterer )
Henry is at Latheronwheel.

Williamina and Annie remain in the area , and their names appear on tombstones along with their parents.
see Tombstones 182 and 183 Old Latheron: http://www.graven-images.org.uk/lath-old/frames.htm .
Which also reveals that sister Catherine is in Dunedin, NZ.
Archibald goes to Christchurch,as does his brother James.
James died in 1871 and Archibald in 1876 . ( There are articles on the Paperspast site, Archibald Cook Sutherland lived at Corsack or Corsock Cottage, St Asaph Street West )
JAmes , Archibald and Catherine along with some of Archibald's family members were interred in the same plot (137) at Addington cemetery, Selwyn Street.
http://librarydata.christchurch.org.nz/ ... 137&block=

Henry remains in the Latheronwheel area and when he dies , the following appears in the Star:
Star , Issue 5330, 6 June 1885, Page 2
April 6, at Achnagoul Fatheronwhell (sic) , Caithness, Scotland, Henry Sutherland, eldest son of the late William Sutherland; aged 58. Deeply regretted by his brother and sisters and relations in New Zealand. His end was peace.
Since James and Archie are deceased at this point , this means there is another brother in New Zealand and another sister ( besides Catherine ) plus other relatives still alive in New Zealand.

And that's about as far as I can get. You probably know all this anyway . Apart from the birthday
, their daughter Christina ( born 09 JUN 1833) was a great candidate !
Sally

[dimac]

Sally.....I am absolutely over the moon with all your wonderful discoveries. Can't thankyou
enough. Yipee!! =D> =D> Little did I know your great posting would be awaiting me this am.

Oh YES..YES...this is the right family and you even found Christina...fantastic.....and
siblings who came to Christchurch & were buried in Addington Cemetery. What great
consise research you have done on my behalf....feel very fortunate you have gone to all
this trouble.
Must copy it out smartly & let it soak in.
What a day!!! Very much appreciated Sally, thank you.
Warmest regards,
Di NZ

ps: Also many thanks for the links you have given me.

[dimac]

Sally, Hello......

Thought you might be interested after all your wonderful research on my behalf to know
I have Catherine Sutherland aboves death cert. which reads as follows:
Deaths in the District of Christchurch (NZ)
No: 779
When & where died: 1909 Nov 16....Colombo St. Sydenham (Christchurch)
Age: 82
Cause of Death: Cancer of Liver - 6 mths. Jaundice - 3 weeks. Ded. Attend: G.M. Sandstein
Last saw Deceased: Nov 16 1909
Parents:
Name & Surname of Father: William Sutherland
Name & Surname of Mother: Janet Sutherland formerly Sinclair
Rank or Profession of Father: Farmer
When & where Buried: 18 Nov 1909 - Addington
Name & Religion of Minister or name of Witness of Burial: Mr R. Gebbie - Church of Christ.
Where born: Scotland
How long in New Zealand: 40 years.
Where married: blank
At what age married: blank
To whom married: blank
But under:
If issue living, state number, sex and age: 1 male - 51yrs.
Informant: John RHIND - Undertaker - Christchurch. Sig. of Reg: LC. Williams
Date: 1909 November 22

So it looks as tho' Catherine remained unmarried even tho' she had a son born to her approx.
11 years before she left Scotland.
___________
Also thought I would also give you Christina Sutherlabnd death cert. to see what you make of it
please. Will get back again in a few secs..don't want a time-out.
regards,
Di

[dimac]

Back again...
This is what puzzles me: Christina Sutherland's death cert.
No: 821
When & where died: 19th January 1912...Lagmhor (Ashburton - daughter Catherine's)
Name & Surname: Christina McLauchlan : Occupation: Married
Sex & Age: Female...76 years
Cause of Death & duration of illness: Apoplexy - 8 hours
Med. Attend. by whom certified: Hugh Hunter MB
When he last saw Deceased: 27th October 1911.
Parents:
Names & Surname of Father: William Sutherland
Name & if known, Maiden surname of Mother: Christia Sutherland formerly Sutherland????
Rank or Profession of Father: Farmer
When & where buried: 21st January 1912 - Cemetery Waterton (Ashburton County) on undertakers Cert.
Name & Religion of Minister: Rev. JA Brown - Prebyterian
Where Born: Dunbeath Caithness
How long in New Zealand: 44 years
Where Married: Christchurch (NZ)
At what age married: 30
To whom married: William McLauchlan
If issue living, state number, age & sex: 2 males - 36yrs & 33yrs, 1 female 39yrs
Informant: J. McLauchlan (eldest son) Description: Son of deceased.
Residence: Waterton
Signature of Registrar: WO White......... Date of Reg: 20th January 1920.

As you see everything fits except for Christina's mother's name - it is not Janet Sinclair & yet
their families are so closely connected, well at least in New Zealand - more than likely in
Latheron also. Christina was married
on 4 June 1868 from the home of Mr Sutherland. James Sutherland, farmer, was witness at
her wedding.

Has the son John McL made a mistake re his grandmother's name.?
One of Christina & Williams sons was called William Archibald Cook McLauchlan
Their first son William Sutherland McLauchlan died a couple of days after birth.

Dimac

[grannysrock]

Hi Again Di,
After scratching my head a bit, and listening to my guts ... they tell me the following about the candidacy of Christina Sutherland daughter of William Sutherland and Janet Sinclair born 9th June 1833 .
- The discrepancy in mother's name is not conclusive. I think we have probably all got death certs where the parents names are wrong. In my tree grandkids who never met their grandparents , often made this mistake ( but I am lucky enough to have other evidence to get past this problem ) .
- The discrepancy in age of 5 years is even less concerning . Following the Achnagoul family over the years , it seems they were all losing one year in every five !
However , like you I think, I struggle with the birthday itself being so far off ...
And the more I look at it, there seem to be so very many Sutherlands from the Latheron area who emigrated to Christchurch or near by . It would be very easy for Christina to have been a cousin of the Achnagoul family or even just a close friend who knew them both sides of the ocean .
I guess you have already done everything you can think of to identify the forename of the brother who was living on the South Town Belt . I have tried searching the Paperspast site , and while there seem to be various Sutherlands in the area, I can't see one at that address . I know it is very expensive to obtain BMDs in New Zealand , and I do not have any experience of genealogical searches there myself , so I am not sure what else you could try ?

Coming back to Scotland then, and working from the premise that the birthday of 16th November is reliable , and the place of birth, ... what I have noticed when searching the IGI for potential Christina's , is that a great deal of the Latheron entries are user-submitted rather than 'extracted' . That makes searching by batch number a lot less fruitful ... Ordinarily , one could search the Latheron batch for
1) all Christians & Christinas ( in case she was born with a different surname )
2) all Sutherlands
and then look for girls with matching birthdays ...
(It has been claimed on other message boards, that the LDS extracted entries on the IGI are steadily being overwritten by user-submitted ones which match the key fields ) .
What I am wondering is if the LDS BIVRI disks ( I don't have them ) have got the full "extracted entries" for Latheron and whether there are any further Christina candidates revealed there . Failing that , you could order the relevant film at your nearest LDS and go through the whole lot ... At least you might see which part of the parish they were born in .
All that supposes she was ever baptised and recorded as such in the Church of Scotland parish registers ..
Someone correct me if I'm wrong , but there don't seem to be any other surviving church records for that area ?

Finally , iff there is a biological connection to William Sutherland and Janet SInclair of Achnagoul , his death cert is available on Scotlands People - that will give you his parents and a starting point towards uncovering potential nieces and nephews who may have gone to the Christchurch area.

Sorry I couldn't be more help

Sally

[dimac]

Sally....but you have been of tremendous help for which I am most grateful as have
other members, by using your knowledge & instincts together with all your experience.
I had thought at one stage that Christina's parents may have both died & she was
taken in to live with Wm & Janet Sutherland (MS Sinclair) just as her husband & she
did when
Archibald Sutherland of Achnagoul & his wife Barbara Munro who married 7 Dec 1865 Tomerich
Parish of Lairg, died when 40, and they raised their son George Alexander Sutherland.

Your suggestion to get William Sutherlands parents cert is excellent & just maybe all may
fall into place...& my feeling that Wm snr & Christian Sutherland could possibly be
siblings just might be proven.

Thank you also Sally for going through Papers Past which can be so tedious & time
consuming - that was also extremely good of you.

If anything of value comes up I will most certainly let you know & I do feel closer to
Christina now as though your help I have learnt so much more about the Achnagoule
Sutherland Family.
Thank you once again for all your generous help,
Special wishes,
Di