Bell.....

[RChristopher]

Hi Sally and Lesley

Now this is getting really good! I am always reassured to see the same christian names repeating i.e. Peter, James, Robert, David, Mary, etc.

I would be extremely grateful if Sally could let me have her sources or get printouts to me. I know it can be expensive downloading old documentation, but it doesn't matter so much when its your own family! I wouldn't even be averse to a trip to Edinburgh. Any excuse!

Best wishes
Richard

[LesleyB]

Hi Richard
FreeCen – a project aims to provide a transcribed "free-to-view" online searchable database of the 19th century UK census returns can be found at:
http://freecen.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

IGI can be found at www.familysearch.org

Scotlands People where I suspect Sally found the death of Robert who was married to janet Adamson is at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

Best wishes
Lesley

[robineaston]

Hi Sally and Lesley

Now this is getting really good! I am always reassured to see the same christian names repeating i.e. Peter, James, Robert, David, Mary, etc.

I would be extremely grateful if Sally could let me have her sources or get printouts to me. I know it can be expensive downloading old documentation, but it doesn't matter so much when its your own family! I wouldn't even be averse to a trip to Edinburgh. Any excuse!

Best wishes
Richard

Hi all

I followed the discussion with excitement.

Richard, the easiest way to get the OPR information is to pick out the film number of an IGI entry ( www.familysearch.org ) and order the film at your Family History Center nearby. Films take just a couple of weeks to arrive and cost little (2,88 euros in Finland). Midlothian OPRs are the most fruitful ones I've encountered!

Robin

[RChristopher]

Hi Robin

That is something I did not know you could do. What information do the films contain? I am swimming in a sea of IGI printouts with barely more than a name on them (and often misspelled thanks to our American cousins)!

Thanks for your interest.

Best wishes
Richard

[grannysrock]

Hi Richard and Lesley ,
?
Do you have cousin Robert’s Marriage – that might give his father’s name?

Via www.FreeBmd.org.uk , there is one suitable birth for Jessie Bell born Liverpool aged 2 in 1861 census and none for Janet Bell ( Jessie and Janet are usually interchangeable) ;

Births Jun 1859
Bell Jessie Ritchie Liverpool 8b 152
Pay attention to the Middle Name (RITCHIE).


Now then Back to the IGI ( http://www.familysearch.org ) :

James Bell AND Janet Ritchie married
07 MAY 1819 Perth, Perth, Scotland
Children :

PETER BELL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 20 FEB 1820 Perth, Perth, Scotland
JAMES RITCHIE BELL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 26 AUG 1821 Perth, Perth, Scotland
JANET BELL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 01 MAY 1825 Perth, Perth, Scotland
ALEXANDER BELL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 15 APR 1827 Perth, Perth, Scotland
ROBERT BELL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 11 AUG 1832 Scone, Perth, Scotland


Alexander and Robert are of the right age for David’s cousins . No John , but he might be James son by a different wife – see later.

So could it be that James who married Janet Ritchie is the son of Peter Bell and Elizabeth Maxton, and that James’ son Robert married Martha from Liverpool ?
But there is a bit of work to be done . A Scottish death cert for James married to Janet Ritchie might help to prove his parents. An, English marriage cert for Robert should give his father ? If it say James then , it all looks reasonable.
.
Some More "Ritchie" Evidence ?
The 1881 Census on http://www.familysearch.org gives
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
Robert BELL Head M Male 48 Scotland Shoe Maker Master
Martha BELL Wife M Female 46 Liverpool
Mary BELL Daur U Female 24 Liverpool Housekeeper
George H. BELL Son U Male 19 Liverpool Shoe Shopman
Adman R. BELL Son U Male 18 Liverpool Shoemaker
Alexander R. BELL Son U Male 16 Liverpool Brass Finisher
Elizabeth L. BELL Daur U Female 15 Liverpool Scholar
Emma BELL Daur U Female 12 Liverpool Scholar
James BELL Son U Male 10 Liverpool Scholar
Robert BELL Son U Male 8 Liverpool Scholar
Martha J. BELL Daur U Female 6 Liverpool Scholar
Wilhelmina BELL Daur U Female 3 Liverpool Scholar

I doubt if Adman is a correct transcription :
www.FREEBMD.org.uk has


Births Dec 1862
BELL Adam Ritchie Liverpool 8b 173
RITCHIE Again .

is this cousin JOHN in 1881 ?

Household: Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
John BELL Head M Male 37 Scotland Shoe Maker Marster
Mary J. BELL Wife M Female 34 Scotland
Christianna BELL Daur Female 12 Scotland Scholar
Marganis BELL Daur Female 9 Scotland Scholar
Jessie BELL Daur Female 7 Liverpool Scholar
Robinia L. BELL Daur Female 1 Liverpool
Source Information: Dwelling 343 Fountains Rd
Census Place Kirkdale, Lancashire, England
Family History Library Film 1341880
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 3675 / 94
Page Number 12

Now lets go back to the IGI

John Bell married MARY ISABELLA THOMSON
01 NOV 1867 Dundee, Angus, Scotland
And has the following children in Scotlands

CHRISTINA BELL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 17 AUG 1868 Perth, Perth, Scotland

.ELIZABETH BELL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 23 SEP 1870 Perth, Perth, Scotland

MARY ANN BELL - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 28 NOV 1871 Perth, Perth, Scotland


I looked up John’s marriage cert – parents James Bell, Shoemaker deceased
And Mary “Karachare” deceased :

BACK TO IGI again:
James Bell married
MARY MACKERRACHER Family
Marriage: 12 DEC 1840 Perth, Perth, Scotland


Is this the same James Bell that married Janet Ritchie ?????

Well I may have found James Bell’s death 1859 Perth . but neither spouse nor parents names have been given – we do get confirmation that he was a shoemaker though.


Now on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk you can find James the shoemaker on the 1851 census for Perth
With wife MARGARET !!!!
And Children Robert 17 Shoemaker born SCONE , Perth
John 6 Scholar born Perth, Perth
And STEPSON Malcolm McGregor 17 Brassfounder , Perth, Perth


Back To the IGI again :
A James Bell got married to
MARGARET RAMSAY ASHTON Family
Marriage: 04 FEB 1848 Perth, Perth, Scotland

And
MALCOLM MACGREGOR
Birth: 25 NOV 1832
Christening: 09 DEC 1832 Perth, Perth, Scotland

Parents:
Father: HUGH MACGREGOR Family
Mother: MARGARET ASHTON



So it does look like James was married 3 times.

It also looks likely that James Bell and Janet Ritchie/Mary McKerracher are the parents of David’s cousins.

What is missing is proof that James is the son of Peter Bell and Elizabeth Maxton ( the parents of Robert in Leith who is pencilled in as David(s father ) . However he was born about the right time in the right place, and named his first son Peter and they were all shoemakers.

I wonder if there is anyone with memorial inscriptions for Perth who could check out if there are any graves for the Bell family ?

I think checking out the relevant Perth OPR films for further clues wouldn't be a bad idea.

Sorry this is so longwinded - you can probably tell I have been having fun !

Sally

[LesleyB]

Hi Sally

Sorry this is so longwinded - you can probably tell I have been having fun !

Have you been out much over the last few days?
Well done.
Best wishes
Lesley

[DavidWW]

Hi Robin

That is something I did not know you could do. What information do the films contain? I am swimming in a sea of IGI printouts with barely more than a name on them (and often misspelled thanks to our American cousins)!

Thanks for your interest.

Best wishes
Richard

Richard

The IGI details are the bare minimum facts extracted from the OPR entries, or from submissions from LDS members.

The latter records must be treated with circumspection as they can sometimes be based on no more than speculation. On the other hand they can also be based on alternative reliable sources such as family bibles, - there are well defined procedures laid out on the www.FamilySearch.org site for establishing if it is possible to locate contact details for the submitter of such records.

It is always but always recommended to look at the full entry in the OPR, as this will sometimes provide just that little bit more information, but sometimes not!, - in other words, not guaranteed

If you aren't within easy reach of an archive or library that holds copies of the OPR microfilms, then your nearest LDS Family History Centre/Center (I'm bilingual ) can order in a copy from Salt Lake City for a reasonable cost, which is then available to you for a month or so.

For a marriage/banns entry, at worst the entry will be of the format "This day Wullie SMITH and Jeannie BROON gave in their names to marriage".

Most often the couple then got married, and sometimes there is an annotation confirming the date of the subsequent marriage, but the absence of such must not be taken as evidence that the marriage did not take place. In the great majority of cases it did , but the important record as far as the Established Church of Scotland was concerned was not the marriage itself, but the proclamation or "crying" of the banns.

In the most unusual situation where the marriage didn't take place, then it's more that likely that there will be mention of this in the kirk session records, - the minutes of the governing committee of the church, consisting of the minister and elders.

The next stage of info is the additional info "....both of this parish", in terms of residence, or the more cryptic mention of one party being of another parish, the assumption being that the other party was resident in the parish of the OPR record.

The next stage is the parish of residence of each party, possibly with a more detailed location in the parish(es) for the (intended) groom at least.

Only very occasionally will there be further info, for example the father of the bride, or the cautioners (those who held the money from the bond that may have been deposited by the couple, which was forfeit should they not get married).

For births/baptisms it's unusual to find more than the name of the child, the names of the parents including the maiden name of the mother, whether lawful or illegitimate, the parent's place of residence in the parish, and the father's occupation, - sometimes not even that! There will sometimes be the names of the witnesses but it is uncommon to find the relationship to the child defined, - they could be uncles or aunts, or more distant relatives, - but without a definition any assumption is dangerous

In the context of witnesses, - a carry over from the convention of godparents, - not a procedure that the Church of Scotland regarded as acceptable since it was seen as being a Catholic/Epsicopalian practice, - the term "Con" or "in presence of the C.", or similar, means that, as was most frequently the case, the baptism was carried out in the presence of the whole Congregation, as is still the case to the present day in the Church of Scotland. In other words, "witnesses" were quite acceptable to the CoS, but godparents weren't, even although, in reality, they gave very similar guarantees, and performed the same functions.

In earlier OPRs it is not unusual to find that the name of the mother is not given.

The format and details included in the Scottish Old Parochial Registers were never as well defined by central authority, or so detailed, and regularly maintained as was the case with the English equivalents.

For those interested in obtaining more detail on the Scottish situation, you need to obtain a copy of "National Index of Parish Registers Volume XII: Sources for Scottish Genealogy and Family History", D.J. Steel and A.E.F. Steel, published for the (London) Society of Genealogists by Phillimore, London and Chichester, 1970, SBN (no "I" at that point!) 900592-52-4, long since out of print, but reasonably priced second hand copies regularly are available on abebooks.com and similar websites.

My several hundred word summary of the situation pales into insignificance in the light of the 320 pages of the above reference work on the subject

David

[RChristopher]

Hi Sally

Now this is getting very impressive. I am starting to feel guilty about the amount of help you've given me. Is there nothing I can do for you in return? My area of speciality is North-West England and North Wales - I'm a real mongrel you know (but still searching for any Irish blood)!

I need some time to digest and check the information you have given me, but the reasoning all looks spot on. I am particularly glad you have found an Alexander - he seems to be the first Bell in Liverpool and is the key to my ancestry - in 1851 he is lodging with the family of David's future wife who is just a girl. The Robert you have found is exactly the right age for David's cousin, and the whole family are from Perth, as is David's father Robert. I've always thought it was a classy place. It will be quite easy to get Robert and Martha's marriage details, although a couple of weeks for the certificate.

Just one little problem I have had going back to Robert and Janet in Edinburgh - the name of their eldest daughter (David's sister). You wrote Marion from the 1841 census. On the 1851 census, the name looks more like Merry or Money (now there's a name - Money Bell). On 1861, it looks like Wilhelmina, not at all the same, yet the age is always consistant. I am a little confused.

Many thanks
Richard

[robineaston]

Hi Robin

That is something I did not know you could do. What information do the films contain? I am swimming in a sea of IGI printouts with barely more than a name on them (and often misspelled thanks to our American cousins)!

Thanks for your interest.

Best wishes
Richard

The films have the original books, mostly with surnames in the marginal. If you are lucky, OPRs give the residence and occupation of the person. Midlothian OPRs often have the parents of bride. But the closer to Edinburgh the parish is, I think, the better OPRs! Go over the Forth to Tulliallan and the OPRs are just like reading the IGI Head for the South and they used the English style of naming the father only.

Regards
Robin

[grannysrock]

Richard

You wrote Marion from the 1841 census. On the 1851 census, the name looks more like Merry or Money (now there's a name - Money Bell). On 1861, it looks like Wilhelmina, not at all the same, yet the age is always consistant. I am a little confused.

The 1841 census I quoted is the transcription on Freecen - the original record will be available to view on Scotlandspeople very very soon we hope ! It may be that Marion is a mistranscription of something like Mina or Meenie or some other short form of Wilhelmina .. Or then again there could have been more than one older sister , with Wilhelmina staying with relatives at the time of the 1841 census ?

Looking at the 1851 entry again - it does look like Money at first glance. But the first letter is different to all the other "M"s on the page , and I think I see a join from the foot of the second letter rather than the top - making it less likely to be an "o" - To be honest I don't have a clue what it says. Time for expert assistance perhaps ?


Perth:

I've always thought it was a classy place.

AGREED.


Sally