Hi all
I think it says " I felt very much indeed.."
Best wishes
Lesley
Help with deciphering part of an 1841 letter.....
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DavidWW
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SarahND
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You have all been very busy while I slept!
I think that the attorney idea won't work, paddyscar, since this person was hired to look after a dying man. Some other lines from the first page that may help give a flavour to the letter are, "...as for worldly comforts, he had them, tho from the hands of strangers. I attended him during his last moments and also the Clergyman Surgeon, and saw the last mark of respect Paid to his Remains. Sofar you may rest assured all was duly attended to his Property... His Effects left were sold by the Appraisers and Writers."
I thought it would be too much to put up the whole letter, but I think it is clear that the closing remarks depend very much on the tenor of the whole communication!
I see your point about the lack of an 'h'. Petrie is a likely enough name and I believe Retrie is a version of Rattray. On looking again, could the initial for the first name be an "L"?
Mallog, I also assumed it was a man
because of many of the reasons you mentioned, but was holding off judgement until I had some proof either way.
Can't be brother, I think, unless this man had even more illegitimate children than I have already found
Which is likely, by the way, "the Boy" being a serious candidate. But I don't think the writer of the letter was one.
Woke up this morning to find the DSL down, so am creeping along on dialup. As soon as high speed is restored, I'll start a hunt for the Petrie/Retrie person.
Thanks for your ideas!
I think that the attorney idea won't work, paddyscar, since this person was hired to look after a dying man. Some other lines from the first page that may help give a flavour to the letter are, "...as for worldly comforts, he had them, tho from the hands of strangers. I attended him during his last moments and also the Clergyman Surgeon, and saw the last mark of respect Paid to his Remains. Sofar you may rest assured all was duly attended to his Property... His Effects left were sold by the Appraisers and Writers."
I thought it would be too much to put up the whole letter, but I think it is clear that the closing remarks depend very much on the tenor of the whole communication!
I see your point about the lack of an 'h'. Petrie is a likely enough name and I believe Retrie is a version of Rattray. On looking again, could the initial for the first name be an "L"?
Mallog, I also assumed it was a man
because of many of the reasons you mentioned, but was holding off judgement until I had some proof either way.Can't be brother, I think, unless this man had even more illegitimate children than I have already found
Which is likely, by the way, "the Boy" being a serious candidate. But I don't think the writer of the letter was one.Woke up this morning to find the DSL down, so am creeping along on dialup. As soon as high speed is restored, I'll start a hunt for the Petrie/Retrie person.
Thanks for your ideas!
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SarahND
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Later...
The only plausible person I have so far found is a Robert Rattray (spelled like that in the 1841 census, but he could have spelled it differently), a house factor, age 70. Would a house factor have involved himself in looking after a tenant? Perhaps he hired others to do so?
Aaak! Look at the 'tr' consonant cluster in 'portrait'. It is nothing like the supposed 'tr' cluster in Petrie/Retrie. Now it is looking more like Retue? Not a very plausible name, unfortunately, and it does look like there is a dotted 'i', unless that is a random drop of ink.
The only plausible person I have so far found is a Robert Rattray (spelled like that in the 1841 census, but he could have spelled it differently), a house factor, age 70. Would a house factor have involved himself in looking after a tenant? Perhaps he hired others to do so?
Aaak! Look at the 'tr' consonant cluster in 'portrait'. It is nothing like the supposed 'tr' cluster in Petrie/Retrie. Now it is looking more like Retue? Not a very plausible name, unfortunately, and it does look like there is a dotted 'i', unless that is a random drop of ink.
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mallog
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Sarah
The more you look at it the more you see. Contrary to my earlier post I have just noticed two occasions the person didn't cross his "t"'s right before my eyes i.e. "With Respects" !!
At first glance the signature definitely looks like Ritchie but not on closer inspection but then signatures are not always legible are they?
As you say you can't rule anything out but it's providing good entertainment - like a cryptic crossword
Mallog
The more you look at it the more you see. Contrary to my earlier post I have just noticed two occasions the person didn't cross his "t"'s right before my eyes i.e. "With Respects" !!
At first glance the signature definitely looks like Ritchie but not on closer inspection but then signatures are not always legible are they?
As you say you can't rule anything out but it's providing good entertainment - like a cryptic crossword
Mallog
Anderson, McAlpine, Blue - Argyll
Dunn Fife /ML
Coutts, McGregor - Perth/Govan
Glen, Crow, Imrie - Angus
Scott & Pick ML
Mason - Co Down
Dunn Fife /ML
Coutts, McGregor - Perth/Govan
Glen, Crow, Imrie - Angus
Scott & Pick ML
Mason - Co Down
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sporran
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Re: 1841 letter
Hello Sarah,
I vote for "I felt very numb", and I am not convinced that an earlier sentence contains "Aberdeen". It looks like "St Cardno", but that may be because I was at school with Brian Cardno.
However, my point in replying is to ask what was the address of the writer, since we should be able to find him in the 1841 census using wildcards.
Regards,
John
I vote for "I felt very numb", and I am not convinced that an earlier sentence contains "Aberdeen". It looks like "St Cardno", but that may be because I was at school with Brian Cardno.
However, my point in replying is to ask what was the address of the writer, since we should be able to find him in the 1841 census using wildcards.
Regards,
John
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paddyscar
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In the light of day and having been troubled by the signature, I've had another look.
I agree with mallog, that the signature is of a person very familiar with letter writing - primarily because it is so stylised when compared to the balance of the letter.
When comparing the first-name initial and the first letter of the surname, there are several differences which could indicate that the names do not begin with the same letters.
Compare the roundness and lightness of the major sweep on the initial to first letter of the surname, which is heavy and not as fluid. I think the surname is preceded by an A similar to Edwardian or Palace MT scripts. There may even be two initials intertwined C and A.
I agree with mallog, that the signature is of a person very familiar with letter writing - primarily because it is so stylised when compared to the balance of the letter.
When comparing the first-name initial and the first letter of the surname, there are several differences which could indicate that the names do not begin with the same letters.
Compare the roundness and lightness of the major sweep on the initial to first letter of the surname, which is heavy and not as fluid. I think the surname is preceded by an A similar to Edwardian or Palace MT scripts. There may even be two initials intertwined C and A.
John Kelly (b 22 Sep 1897) eldest child of John Kelly & Christina Lipsett Kelly of Glasgow
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LesleyB
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Hi all
Another bit which bothers me...
I still think the formation of that first initial is an "R"
best wishes
Lesley
Another bit which bothers me...
I think it also looks like it could be Mr Higgins.. unless you know of him and know he was a William.you should write Wm Huggins
I still think the formation of that first initial is an "R"
best wishes
Lesley
Researching:
Midlothian & Fife - Goalen, Lawrie, Ewart, Nimmo, Jamieson, Dick, Ballingall.
Dunbartonshire- Mcnicol, Davy, Guy, McCunn, McKenzie.
Ayrshire- Lyon, Parker, Mitchell, Fraser.
Easter Ross- McCulloch, Smith, Ross, Duff, Rose.
Midlothian & Fife - Goalen, Lawrie, Ewart, Nimmo, Jamieson, Dick, Ballingall.
Dunbartonshire- Mcnicol, Davy, Guy, McCunn, McKenzie.
Ayrshire- Lyon, Parker, Mitchell, Fraser.
Easter Ross- McCulloch, Smith, Ross, Duff, Rose.
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SarahND
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Hello John,
I see what you mean about "St Cardno", but since I know the son was in Aberdeen, it still looks like "Aberdeen" to me!
The letter just says: "Glasgow, 29 Nov 1841" in the upper righthand corner. There is an envelope, but no return address. Only the address of the recipient, with a notation that it was to go by the "Columbia", via Boston.
The only hint I have as to address-- and it may not be a valid hint at all-- is that in April of 1837 my 3rd gr grandfather wrote to his daughter that he was about to "flitt" and that his new address would be 125 West Georges street Fife Place. Since this was over 4 years before the other letter, he may well not have been in the same place at his death, but it's all I have concerning location. And, of course, the Ritchie/Rattray/Petrie person may not have lived nearby anyway.
Oh, also, a kind person once looked in the 1840 directory for me, and he (my relative, not the author of the 1841 letter) was listed at 255 George street, but this may have been a business address.
Does any of this ring a bell to those of you who know Glasgow? Any difference between George St and Georges St, or is this a typo in one direction or the other?
It's wonderful how a "simple" matter of deciphering the closing formula in a letter can lead in so many fascinating directions!
Sarah
I see what you mean about "St Cardno", but since I know the son was in Aberdeen, it still looks like "Aberdeen" to me!
The letter just says: "Glasgow, 29 Nov 1841" in the upper righthand corner. There is an envelope, but no return address. Only the address of the recipient, with a notation that it was to go by the "Columbia", via Boston.
The only hint I have as to address-- and it may not be a valid hint at all-- is that in April of 1837 my 3rd gr grandfather wrote to his daughter that he was about to "flitt" and that his new address would be 125 West Georges street Fife Place. Since this was over 4 years before the other letter, he may well not have been in the same place at his death, but it's all I have concerning location. And, of course, the Ritchie/Rattray/Petrie person may not have lived nearby anyway.
Oh, also, a kind person once looked in the 1840 directory for me, and he (my relative, not the author of the 1841 letter) was listed at 255 George street, but this may have been a business address.
Does any of this ring a bell to those of you who know Glasgow? Any difference between George St and Georges St, or is this a typo in one direction or the other?
It's wonderful how a "simple" matter of deciphering the closing formula in a letter can lead in so many fascinating directions!
Sarah
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SarahND
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Hi Lesley,
Yes, I have already researched a circle around Mr. Higgins/Huggins and come to the conclusion that he was William Beers Huggins, who was born in New Haven, Connecticut but ran a shipping business in Glasgow at the relevant time. There is further talk of shipping "the Boy" over via Wm Huggins as well. Since all the shipping discussed was to take place between Glasgow and New Haven, Connecticut, it seemed to fit.
When I stare at it long enough, I think that the first initial is different from that of the surname. But I also know that I make two very different kinds of S's when I sign my name from one time to another... so it is not a foolproof conclusion!
regards,
Sarah
Yes, I have already researched a circle around Mr. Higgins/Huggins and come to the conclusion that he was William Beers Huggins, who was born in New Haven, Connecticut but ran a shipping business in Glasgow at the relevant time. There is further talk of shipping "the Boy" over via Wm Huggins as well. Since all the shipping discussed was to take place between Glasgow and New Haven, Connecticut, it seemed to fit.
When I stare at it long enough, I think that the first initial is different from that of the surname. But I also know that I make two very different kinds of S's when I sign my name from one time to another... so it is not a foolproof conclusion!
regards,
Sarah