Jack,
I still don't know what to think about the whole thing, but I have another tidbit. On the IGI I find:
Margaret Ravelton
Christened 28 OCT 1781 Cambusnethan, Lanark, Scotland
Parents Alexander Ravelton/Elisabeth Smith.
That agrees pretty well with the Margaret Smellie from Cambusnethan on the 1851 census in Hamilton. So maybe the John Smellie from Hamilton is a complete red herring.
I still have to figure out Marion Brown though. Maybe the other John Smellie will turn out to have a mother named Marion Brown too. Nothing would surprise me with this family.
-Bob
Margaret Wotherspoon in Old Monkland.....
Moderator: Global Moderators
-
Jack
- Posts: 1808
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:34 pm
- Location: Paisley
Hi Bob,
The reason i'd looked for other SMELLIEs was simply because i too had some niggling doubts about the John & Margaret in Hamilton. So for the moment i'll go with your "Very neat and tidy" explanation of 2 separate families. Makes it easier until proved otherwise!
--
You'll no doubt have all this - interesting that the BROWN name appears on one of Mary SMELLIE's children, so it does look like the name has a significance in either the SMELLIE or the WOTHERSPOON families. But which one?
Father: THOMAS WISHART
Mother: JANET MCKUNE / MCCUNE
THOMAS WISHART - Birth: 09 JUN 1856 Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
MARY ANN WISHART - Birth: 02 MAY 1858 Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
JANET WISHART - Birth: 04 JUL 1860 Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
ALEXANDER WISHART - Birth: 24 FEB 1863 Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
JANE WISHART - Birth: 07 JUL 1864 Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
--
THOMAS WISHART
MARY SMELLIE
Marriage: 14 SEP 1866 Falkirk, Stirling, Scotland
MARGARET WOTHERSPOON WISHART - Birth: 14 JAN 1868 Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
WILLIAM BROWN WISHART - Birth: 12 JAN 1870 Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
DAVID LAING WISHART - Birth: 22 JAN 1872 Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
====
1881 Census Place: Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
Dwelling: Mollanburn
Source: FHL Film 0203618 GRO Ref Volume 626-A2 EnumDist 1 Page 4
Thomas WISHART M 60 M Cummatrees, Dumfries, Scotland Rel: Head Occ: Tailor And Clothier Employ 1 Man 2 Boys
Mary WISHART M 53 F O Monkland, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Wife
Alexander D. WISHART U 18 M Cadder, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Son Occ: Tailor
Jane WISHART U 16 F Cadder, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Daur
Margaret W. WISHART 13 F Cadder, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar
William B. WISHART 11 M Cadder, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Son Occ: Scholar
David L. WISHART 9 M Cadder, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Son Occ: Scholar
Robert MC LAUCHLAN U 19 M Dysart, Fife, Scotland Rel: Serv Occ: Tailor Apprentice
====
I'm now scraping the barrel! - but it should be easy enough to find out if this Janet is yours or not; about right age & birthplace though.
JOHN HAMILTON
JANET SMELLIE
Marriage: 17 JUL 1874 New Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
Dwelling: 53 North Bridge St
1881 Census Place: New Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203696 GRO Ref Volume 651-1 EnumDist 23 Page 7
John HAMILTON M 34 M Airdrie, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Head Occ: Engine Keeper
Janet HAMILTON M 58 F Langloan, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Wife
====
The solution, as you say, hopefully lies in the 1841 census - pity it isn't online yet. John SMELLIE & Margaret RAVELTON may be in Hamilton for 1841, and Margaret WOTHERSPOON (with children - possibly hubby John too) in one of the Monklands Parishes.
FreeCen gives the number of Eds & pages. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... eeCEN/LKS/
When you have a census no. it's usually pretty straightforward, but a scroll through a film makes it more difficult (esp if pages are poor). I'm in the middle of working in 2 of my children's houses just now, but i'll see what can be done.
Jack
The reason i'd looked for other SMELLIEs was simply because i too had some niggling doubts about the John & Margaret in Hamilton. So for the moment i'll go with your "Very neat and tidy" explanation of 2 separate families. Makes it easier until proved otherwise!
--
You'll no doubt have all this - interesting that the BROWN name appears on one of Mary SMELLIE's children, so it does look like the name has a significance in either the SMELLIE or the WOTHERSPOON families. But which one?
Father: THOMAS WISHART
Mother: JANET MCKUNE / MCCUNE
THOMAS WISHART - Birth: 09 JUN 1856 Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
MARY ANN WISHART - Birth: 02 MAY 1858 Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
JANET WISHART - Birth: 04 JUL 1860 Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
ALEXANDER WISHART - Birth: 24 FEB 1863 Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
JANE WISHART - Birth: 07 JUL 1864 Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
--
THOMAS WISHART
MARY SMELLIE
Marriage: 14 SEP 1866 Falkirk, Stirling, Scotland
MARGARET WOTHERSPOON WISHART - Birth: 14 JAN 1868 Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
WILLIAM BROWN WISHART - Birth: 12 JAN 1870 Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
DAVID LAING WISHART - Birth: 22 JAN 1872 Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
====
1881 Census Place: Cadder, Lanark, Scotland
Dwelling: Mollanburn
Source: FHL Film 0203618 GRO Ref Volume 626-A2 EnumDist 1 Page 4
Thomas WISHART M 60 M Cummatrees, Dumfries, Scotland Rel: Head Occ: Tailor And Clothier Employ 1 Man 2 Boys
Mary WISHART M 53 F O Monkland, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Wife
Alexander D. WISHART U 18 M Cadder, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Son Occ: Tailor
Jane WISHART U 16 F Cadder, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Daur
Margaret W. WISHART 13 F Cadder, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar
William B. WISHART 11 M Cadder, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Son Occ: Scholar
David L. WISHART 9 M Cadder, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Son Occ: Scholar
Robert MC LAUCHLAN U 19 M Dysart, Fife, Scotland Rel: Serv Occ: Tailor Apprentice
====
I'm now scraping the barrel! - but it should be easy enough to find out if this Janet is yours or not; about right age & birthplace though.
JOHN HAMILTON
JANET SMELLIE
Marriage: 17 JUL 1874 New Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
Dwelling: 53 North Bridge St
1881 Census Place: New Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203696 GRO Ref Volume 651-1 EnumDist 23 Page 7
John HAMILTON M 34 M Airdrie, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Head Occ: Engine Keeper
Janet HAMILTON M 58 F Langloan, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Wife
====
The solution, as you say, hopefully lies in the 1841 census - pity it isn't online yet. John SMELLIE & Margaret RAVELTON may be in Hamilton for 1841, and Margaret WOTHERSPOON (with children - possibly hubby John too) in one of the Monklands Parishes.
FreeCen gives the number of Eds & pages. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... eeCEN/LKS/
When you have a census no. it's usually pretty straightforward, but a scroll through a film makes it more difficult (esp if pages are poor). I'm in the middle of working in 2 of my children's houses just now, but i'll see what can be done.
Jack
-
bobj-kirk
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:49 am
- Location: Yellowknife, NT, Canada
Jack,
Other than the MC, I didn't have further info on the Smellie/Wishart family, so this is new to me. I only started on my mom's (Smellie) family a few months ago and I have been pretty well keeping to direct ancestors plus siblings. Anyway, the names in this family are very interesting. Margaret Wotherspoon Wishart may be named after her grandmother Margaret Smellie MS Wotherspoon, or her aunt Margaret Wotherspoon Shaw MS Smellie. (The middle name does not appear on Margaret's OPR birth, but is on her DC). Carrying on with this naming style, we would expect to see ancestors with the surnames Brown and Laing.
So, to check, I looked up the only grandparents we don't know:
Thomas Wishart March 17, 1901 DC, age 80
Tailor and Clothier (married to Mary Smellie)
Parents Thomas Wishart (deceased) and Mary Wishart MS Smith (deceased)
Informant Wm B Wishart, son
Now we know all the grandparents (John Smellie/Margaret Wotherspoon and Thomas Wishart/Mary Smith). No match so, I guess we should expect to find the names Brown and Laing in the great grand parents. On a cursory search, I can't identify the parents of Wishart or Smith, and of course, our big problem is the parents of John Smellie. The only female great grandparent we know is Margaret Wotherspoon's mother Margaret Miller (unless there are two Margaret Wotherspoons), but no match there.
This Janet you found is a real head scratcher. First let me show the MC info I found (the copy is difficult to read):
Date: 17 July 1874
Groom: John Hamilton, Engine Keeper, Bachelor, (signed with an X), age 24
Groom's Parents: William Hamilton, Coal Miner, deceased; Mary Hamilton MS Lilmeury[?] deceased.
Bride: Janet Smellie, Spinster, (signed with an X), age 37
Bride's Parents: William Smellie, Weaver, deceased; Margaret Smellie MS Wotherspoon, deceased
Witnesses: Agnes Shaw, Robert Gibson.
Considering the census age, there is an outside chance that this is our Janet and she lied about her age at her marriage. Not surprising since she would have been 53 marrying a 24 year old man. For this to be true, her father's name had to be recorded incorrectly (just possible considering she probably couldn't read what they wrote). The witness Agnes Shaw is probably her sister Margaret Shaw's daughter and she can read (or at least can sign her name), so that makes it a little less believable.
Anyway, the whole thing got me to thinking, if she lied about her age when she was married, maybe someone else lied when she died. Lo and behold, I found her 1899 DC with age listed as only 70 when she was really 79. Her DC shows John Hamilton as her husband and Margaret Wotherspoon as her mother. So, I am satisfied this is our Janet and the MC is a little screwed up. She died in the poorhouse, and the informant was the governor, so the age was probably what she told other people.
BTW, I just wanted to explain why I can't get the censuses easily myself and why I really appreciate the lookups. I live in the Canadian arctic, probably like living in the Shetlands, only more remote. We have a small FHC here but with no film inventory. I can order in the films and it takes about a month. The FHC is only open two hours a week. So, to find one family on census films without an index would probably take weeks. I have ordered in the Lanark FHS 1851 census index on CD and some 1851 films at the FHC, so I will be able to do lookups on that in a few weeks. For the 1841 census, I haven't seen a surname index, so I don't know how much use the films would be to me. (I've seen street indexes, but I am not sure that would be of much help without a surname index). I'm sort of feeling my way on this. Maybe someone has advice on what I need to be able to use census films in my situation.
Thanks for your help, even though you're making my head spin.
-Bob
Other than the MC, I didn't have further info on the Smellie/Wishart family, so this is new to me. I only started on my mom's (Smellie) family a few months ago and I have been pretty well keeping to direct ancestors plus siblings. Anyway, the names in this family are very interesting. Margaret Wotherspoon Wishart may be named after her grandmother Margaret Smellie MS Wotherspoon, or her aunt Margaret Wotherspoon Shaw MS Smellie. (The middle name does not appear on Margaret's OPR birth, but is on her DC). Carrying on with this naming style, we would expect to see ancestors with the surnames Brown and Laing.
So, to check, I looked up the only grandparents we don't know:
Thomas Wishart March 17, 1901 DC, age 80
Tailor and Clothier (married to Mary Smellie)
Parents Thomas Wishart (deceased) and Mary Wishart MS Smith (deceased)
Informant Wm B Wishart, son
Now we know all the grandparents (John Smellie/Margaret Wotherspoon and Thomas Wishart/Mary Smith). No match so, I guess we should expect to find the names Brown and Laing in the great grand parents. On a cursory search, I can't identify the parents of Wishart or Smith, and of course, our big problem is the parents of John Smellie. The only female great grandparent we know is Margaret Wotherspoon's mother Margaret Miller (unless there are two Margaret Wotherspoons), but no match there.
This Janet you found is a real head scratcher. First let me show the MC info I found (the copy is difficult to read):
Date: 17 July 1874
Groom: John Hamilton, Engine Keeper, Bachelor, (signed with an X), age 24
Groom's Parents: William Hamilton, Coal Miner, deceased; Mary Hamilton MS Lilmeury[?] deceased.
Bride: Janet Smellie, Spinster, (signed with an X), age 37
Bride's Parents: William Smellie, Weaver, deceased; Margaret Smellie MS Wotherspoon, deceased
Witnesses: Agnes Shaw, Robert Gibson.
Considering the census age, there is an outside chance that this is our Janet and she lied about her age at her marriage. Not surprising since she would have been 53 marrying a 24 year old man. For this to be true, her father's name had to be recorded incorrectly (just possible considering she probably couldn't read what they wrote). The witness Agnes Shaw is probably her sister Margaret Shaw's daughter and she can read (or at least can sign her name), so that makes it a little less believable.
Anyway, the whole thing got me to thinking, if she lied about her age when she was married, maybe someone else lied when she died. Lo and behold, I found her 1899 DC with age listed as only 70 when she was really 79. Her DC shows John Hamilton as her husband and Margaret Wotherspoon as her mother. So, I am satisfied this is our Janet and the MC is a little screwed up. She died in the poorhouse, and the informant was the governor, so the age was probably what she told other people.
BTW, I just wanted to explain why I can't get the censuses easily myself and why I really appreciate the lookups. I live in the Canadian arctic, probably like living in the Shetlands, only more remote. We have a small FHC here but with no film inventory. I can order in the films and it takes about a month. The FHC is only open two hours a week. So, to find one family on census films without an index would probably take weeks. I have ordered in the Lanark FHS 1851 census index on CD and some 1851 films at the FHC, so I will be able to do lookups on that in a few weeks. For the 1841 census, I haven't seen a surname index, so I don't know how much use the films would be to me. (I've seen street indexes, but I am not sure that would be of much help without a surname index). I'm sort of feeling my way on this. Maybe someone has advice on what I need to be able to use census films in my situation.
Thanks for your help, even though you're making my head spin.
-Bob
-
Jack
- Posts: 1808
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:34 pm
- Location: Paisley
Hi Bob,
I'd mentioned the search of 1841 because i just wasn't too sure when i'd next be able to look at it - but, as my work at the children's houses is free they're not going to complain if i take a few more days off - well not if they want it finished they won't!
Fortunately we've found there are 2 John & Margaret SMELLIEs - adult ages were usually rounded down in 1841.
That's the "easy" bit over - it may be harder if you want to try and make sense of the rest....
--
ALL the folk listed are born in Lanarkshire.
The "//" means start of a household head, and the single "/" usually means a separate family head in the same household.
--
1841 cens 652 Ed 24 p 5 (Old Monkland)
Langlone.
// Mrs. Widow WOTHERSPOON, 80, ------
John SMELLIE, 20, labourer
Robert THOM, 30, engineman
Margaret SMELLIE, 25, -----
Archd. THOM, 7, -----
Margaret THOM, 4, ----
John THOM, 1, ------
Janet SMELLIE, 15, ------
--
Next is the WHOLE of page 9. I felt i had to list them all in case there is a connection between some of them - and those on the above page 5 too. Your head will be really spinning now - mine is!
1841 cens 652 Ed 24 p 9 (Old Monkland)
Langlone.
// John WALKER, 50, labourer
Barbara WALKER, 45, --------
James WALKER, 20, labourer
/ John RUSSEL, 60, weaver
James DALZELL, 20, mason
Barbara THOM, 6, -------
// Alexr. WOTHERSPOON, 55, quarryman
Ann THOM, 55, ---------
Hugh WOTHERSPOON, 20, quarryman
James WOTHERSPOON, 15, cast iron moulder
Alexr. WOTHERSPOON, 15, -----------
/ Janet KIRKLAND, 40, tambourer
Robert MAIN, 30, labourer
James McDOUGALL, 15, puddler
/ Mrs. Widow WOTHERSPOON, 50, --------
Wm. WOTHERSPOON, 20, roadsman
Ann WOTHERSPOON, 10, -------
James McLACKERTY, 3, ------
Wm. McLACKERTY, 1, -----
// JOHN SMELLIE, 55, weaver
MARGARET SMELLIE, 50, ------
Jane SMELLIE, 25, -------
Mary SMELLIE, 15, -------
John Smellie SPITTAL, 1, --
-------------------------------
1841 cens 647 Ed 14 p 18 (Hamilton)
Muir Wynd.
// JOHN SMELLIE, 65, cotton hand loom weaver
MARGARET SMELLIE, 60, ---------
/ Margaret REID, 20, tambourer
Margaret REID, 10, ------
--------------------------------
Jack
----
ps - there are other Smellies & Wotherspoons in both Hamilton & Monkland.
I'd mentioned the search of 1841 because i just wasn't too sure when i'd next be able to look at it - but, as my work at the children's houses is free they're not going to complain if i take a few more days off - well not if they want it finished they won't!
Fortunately we've found there are 2 John & Margaret SMELLIEs - adult ages were usually rounded down in 1841.
That's the "easy" bit over - it may be harder if you want to try and make sense of the rest....
--
ALL the folk listed are born in Lanarkshire.
The "//" means start of a household head, and the single "/" usually means a separate family head in the same household.
--
1841 cens 652 Ed 24 p 5 (Old Monkland)
Langlone.
// Mrs. Widow WOTHERSPOON, 80, ------
John SMELLIE, 20, labourer
Robert THOM, 30, engineman
Margaret SMELLIE, 25, -----
Archd. THOM, 7, -----
Margaret THOM, 4, ----
John THOM, 1, ------
Janet SMELLIE, 15, ------
--
Next is the WHOLE of page 9. I felt i had to list them all in case there is a connection between some of them - and those on the above page 5 too. Your head will be really spinning now - mine is!
1841 cens 652 Ed 24 p 9 (Old Monkland)
Langlone.
// John WALKER, 50, labourer
Barbara WALKER, 45, --------
James WALKER, 20, labourer
/ John RUSSEL, 60, weaver
James DALZELL, 20, mason
Barbara THOM, 6, -------
// Alexr. WOTHERSPOON, 55, quarryman
Ann THOM, 55, ---------
Hugh WOTHERSPOON, 20, quarryman
James WOTHERSPOON, 15, cast iron moulder
Alexr. WOTHERSPOON, 15, -----------
/ Janet KIRKLAND, 40, tambourer
Robert MAIN, 30, labourer
James McDOUGALL, 15, puddler
/ Mrs. Widow WOTHERSPOON, 50, --------
Wm. WOTHERSPOON, 20, roadsman
Ann WOTHERSPOON, 10, -------
James McLACKERTY, 3, ------
Wm. McLACKERTY, 1, -----
// JOHN SMELLIE, 55, weaver
MARGARET SMELLIE, 50, ------
Jane SMELLIE, 25, -------
Mary SMELLIE, 15, -------
John Smellie SPITTAL, 1, --
-------------------------------
1841 cens 647 Ed 14 p 18 (Hamilton)
Muir Wynd.
// JOHN SMELLIE, 65, cotton hand loom weaver
MARGARET SMELLIE, 60, ---------
/ Margaret REID, 20, tambourer
Margaret REID, 10, ------
--------------------------------
Jack
----
ps - there are other Smellies & Wotherspoons in both Hamilton & Monkland.
-
bobj-kirk
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:49 am
- Location: Yellowknife, NT, Canada
Jack,
Okay, here's my interpretation of what you sent me.
1841 cens 652 Ed 24 p 5 (Old Monkland)
The Widow Wotherspoon is probably Margaret Wotherspoon's mother Margaret Miller Wotherspoon.
Robert Thom, Margaret Smellie, and Thom children. I had Margaret down as marrying Robert Shaw, but on reviewing the originals (which are not too clear), I now read it as Thom. Amazing how close Thom and Shaw appear in handwriting.
1841 cens 652 Ed 24 p 9 (Old Monkland)
Langlone.
//John Walker - not apparently related.
/John Russell - relationship unknown, seems to have one of the Thom children visiting. Possibly Grand Uncle to the child.
//Alexr Wotherspoon - good candidate for brother of Margaret Wotherspoon.
Ann Thom - wife could be Aunt to Robert Thom.
22 Oct 1815 Anne Thom married Alexander Wotherspoon at Old Monkland.
/Janet Kirkland - not apparently related.
/Mrs. Widow Wotherspoon - Ann Dalziel married William Wotherspoon January 3, 1813, at Old monkland; died May 13, 1869 at South Airdrie, New Monkland. Possible candidate for Margaret Wotherspoon's sister in law.
Ann Wotherspoon - married Alexander Stevenson December 16, 1870 at Gartsherrie Manse, Old Monkland, parents William Wotherspoon/Ann Dalziel.
//John Smellie - Okay, now I agree, this is my family. I still want to know who Marion Brown is though.
1841 cens 647 Ed 14 p 18 (Hamilton)
//John Smellie - And these are not mine. More or less a Red Herring.
Well ---- I am satisfied that we now have Margaret Wotherspoon all tied up. I will have to do more digging for John Smellie (and Marion Brown) because we have run out of censuses. I really appreciate all the work you have done, both the lookups and the criticism that led us to the right solution.
Thanks also to Andy, Annette M and David WW for your help. Hope I didn't miss anybody.
-Bob
Okay, here's my interpretation of what you sent me.
1841 cens 652 Ed 24 p 5 (Old Monkland)
The Widow Wotherspoon is probably Margaret Wotherspoon's mother Margaret Miller Wotherspoon.
Robert Thom, Margaret Smellie, and Thom children. I had Margaret down as marrying Robert Shaw, but on reviewing the originals (which are not too clear), I now read it as Thom. Amazing how close Thom and Shaw appear in handwriting.
1841 cens 652 Ed 24 p 9 (Old Monkland)
Langlone.
//John Walker - not apparently related.
/John Russell - relationship unknown, seems to have one of the Thom children visiting. Possibly Grand Uncle to the child.
//Alexr Wotherspoon - good candidate for brother of Margaret Wotherspoon.
Ann Thom - wife could be Aunt to Robert Thom.
22 Oct 1815 Anne Thom married Alexander Wotherspoon at Old Monkland.
/Janet Kirkland - not apparently related.
/Mrs. Widow Wotherspoon - Ann Dalziel married William Wotherspoon January 3, 1813, at Old monkland; died May 13, 1869 at South Airdrie, New Monkland. Possible candidate for Margaret Wotherspoon's sister in law.
Ann Wotherspoon - married Alexander Stevenson December 16, 1870 at Gartsherrie Manse, Old Monkland, parents William Wotherspoon/Ann Dalziel.
//John Smellie - Okay, now I agree, this is my family. I still want to know who Marion Brown is though.
1841 cens 647 Ed 14 p 18 (Hamilton)
//John Smellie - And these are not mine. More or less a Red Herring.
Well ---- I am satisfied that we now have Margaret Wotherspoon all tied up. I will have to do more digging for John Smellie (and Marion Brown) because we have run out of censuses. I really appreciate all the work you have done, both the lookups and the criticism that led us to the right solution.
Thanks also to Andy, Annette M and David WW for your help. Hope I didn't miss anybody.
-Bob
-
Jack
- Posts: 1808
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:34 pm
- Location: Paisley
Hi Bob,
Good bit of thinking on your part - i'll certainly go along with what you've worked out. I've got some follow ups on a few of the 1841 names for 1851 & 1861 which i'll get at one point. I do hope i wasn't critical in any way - i certainly didn't intend to be!
Margaret 25, John 20, Janet 15 - all did seem right to be the gr-children of Mrs. Widow WOTHERSPOON (80), but i do admit to having a note with a "?" mark against THOM / SHAW. I'd been wondering if Margaret's 1903 DC said her hubby was Robert SHAW, but a 1st hubby Robert THOM had been omitted.
Maybe Marion BROWN is John SMELLIE's mother, but no proof at all - hopefully one day you'll find out who she is. I also think you've got a bit of a challenge in sorting out your Wotherspoon family, but that's what happens when (for want of a more tasteful phrase) we dig up our ancestors.... If you could help out with this question.
Alexander STEVENSON married Ann WOTHERSPOON in 1870 - were they widower & widow?
--
1881 Census Place: Shettleston, Lanark, Scotland
Dwelling: 5 John St
Source: FHL Film 0203614 GRO Ref Volume 622-2 EnumDist 14 Page 37
Alex. STEVENSON M 51 M Bannockburn, Stirling, Scotland Rel: Head Occ: Coal Miner
Ann STEVENSON M 50 F Coatbridge, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Wife
Walter STEVENSON 14 M Gartsherrie, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Son Occ: Coal Miner
Ann STEVENSON 9 F Gartsherrie, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar
John STEVENSON 7 M Gartsherrie, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Son Occ: Scholar
--
Ta - Jack
Good bit of thinking on your part - i'll certainly go along with what you've worked out. I've got some follow ups on a few of the 1841 names for 1851 & 1861 which i'll get at one point. I do hope i wasn't critical in any way - i certainly didn't intend to be!
Margaret 25, John 20, Janet 15 - all did seem right to be the gr-children of Mrs. Widow WOTHERSPOON (80), but i do admit to having a note with a "?" mark against THOM / SHAW. I'd been wondering if Margaret's 1903 DC said her hubby was Robert SHAW, but a 1st hubby Robert THOM had been omitted.
Maybe Marion BROWN is John SMELLIE's mother, but no proof at all - hopefully one day you'll find out who she is. I also think you've got a bit of a challenge in sorting out your Wotherspoon family, but that's what happens when (for want of a more tasteful phrase) we dig up our ancestors.... If you could help out with this question.
Alexander STEVENSON married Ann WOTHERSPOON in 1870 - were they widower & widow?
--
1881 Census Place: Shettleston, Lanark, Scotland
Dwelling: 5 John St
Source: FHL Film 0203614 GRO Ref Volume 622-2 EnumDist 14 Page 37
Alex. STEVENSON M 51 M Bannockburn, Stirling, Scotland Rel: Head Occ: Coal Miner
Ann STEVENSON M 50 F Coatbridge, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Wife
Walter STEVENSON 14 M Gartsherrie, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Son Occ: Coal Miner
Ann STEVENSON 9 F Gartsherrie, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar
John STEVENSON 7 M Gartsherrie, Lanark, Scotland Rel: Son Occ: Scholar
--
Ta - Jack
-
bobj-kirk
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:49 am
- Location: Yellowknife, NT, Canada
Jack,
The only criticism from you has been very polite and constructive and I appreciate it. Keep it up whenever you suspect a problem, because it helps me sort things out.
As far as the Shaw/Thom thing goes, I will try to upload the image later and you can have a look. I tried last night, but somehow lost my connection to TalkingScot. I am not sure you can say for certain if it is one way or the other considering the quality of the image. I did consider her marrying twice, and I guess it is possible, but the husband's name and occupation (Robert, engine keeper) both match and I can't find Robert Shaw, so it seems right at least for the time being. Fortunately, it does not affect my direct line, whatever the outcome.
With respect to your question about Alexander STEVENSON married Ann WOTHERSPOON in 1870, here is the detail from her 1870 MC:
Date: December 16,1870.
Groom: Alexander Stevenson, Collier, Widower, age 41, residence No 139 Gartsherrie, parents Andrew Stevenson, Collier and Lilly Stevenson Stevenson MS Johnston.
Bride: Ann Wotherspoon, Washerwoman, Widow, age 40, residence Gartsherrie, parents William Wotherspoon, Labourer (dec) and Ann Wotherspoon MS Dalziel (dec).
Her 1908 DC shows her two husbands, but has an apparent error in her mother's maiden name:
Ann Stevenson, Married to (1st) Peter Wilson, Coal Miner (2nd) Alexander Stevenson, Coal Miner.
Date June: 24, 1908, age 79 years.
Parents: William Wotherspoon (Deceased), Ann Wotherspoon, MS Smellie, (Deceased).
Informant: Ann W Mcarthur, Daughter, Present, 21 Bridge Street, Linwood, Paisley.
I don't have a DC on Alexander Stevenson. I looked and there is no obvious candidate, but a few possibles.
Did you ask about this because of other research you're doing, or do you see another problem in my line?
-Bob
The only criticism from you has been very polite and constructive and I appreciate it. Keep it up whenever you suspect a problem, because it helps me sort things out.
As far as the Shaw/Thom thing goes, I will try to upload the image later and you can have a look. I tried last night, but somehow lost my connection to TalkingScot. I am not sure you can say for certain if it is one way or the other considering the quality of the image. I did consider her marrying twice, and I guess it is possible, but the husband's name and occupation (Robert, engine keeper) both match and I can't find Robert Shaw, so it seems right at least for the time being. Fortunately, it does not affect my direct line, whatever the outcome.
With respect to your question about Alexander STEVENSON married Ann WOTHERSPOON in 1870, here is the detail from her 1870 MC:
Date: December 16,1870.
Groom: Alexander Stevenson, Collier, Widower, age 41, residence No 139 Gartsherrie, parents Andrew Stevenson, Collier and Lilly Stevenson Stevenson MS Johnston.
Bride: Ann Wotherspoon, Washerwoman, Widow, age 40, residence Gartsherrie, parents William Wotherspoon, Labourer (dec) and Ann Wotherspoon MS Dalziel (dec).
Her 1908 DC shows her two husbands, but has an apparent error in her mother's maiden name:
Ann Stevenson, Married to (1st) Peter Wilson, Coal Miner (2nd) Alexander Stevenson, Coal Miner.
Date June: 24, 1908, age 79 years.
Parents: William Wotherspoon (Deceased), Ann Wotherspoon, MS Smellie, (Deceased).
Informant: Ann W Mcarthur, Daughter, Present, 21 Bridge Street, Linwood, Paisley.
I don't have a DC on Alexander Stevenson. I looked and there is no obvious candidate, but a few possibles.
Did you ask about this because of other research you're doing, or do you see another problem in my line?
-Bob
-
Jack
- Posts: 1808
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:34 pm
- Location: Paisley
Hi Bob.
Thanks, and you can relax - not giving you any more problems! It was just that the only suitable Ann WOTHERSPOON i could see in 1851 was newly wed Ann WILSON, and that's what prompted my question. Peter Wilson was born in the Paisley area.
So yet another DC with mistakes - and probably won't be the last either!
You'll have all these by now - an LDS member certainly has some interest.
--
PETER WILSON
ANN WOTHERSPOON
Marriage: 16 JUN 1850 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
[submitted by a member of the LDS Church]
Peter WILSON - b abt 1852 Gartsherrie, Old Monkland
WILLIAM WILSON - Birth: 24 APR 1856 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
WILLIAM WILSON - Birth: 30 DEC 1858 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
MARGARET WILSON - Birth: 15 JAN 1861 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
CHRISTINA WILSON - Birth: 09 JAN 1864 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
---------------------------------------
ALEXANDER STEVENSON
BETSY CUNNINGHAM
Marriage: 24 NOV 1850 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
[Record submitted by a member of the LDS Church]
WILLIAM STEVENSON - Birth: 11 OCT 1856 New Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
MARGARET STEVENSON - Birth: 11 SEP 1858 New Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
ALEXANDER STEVENSON - Birth: 17 JUN 1860 New Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
ARCHIBALD MCDOUGALL STEVENSON - 05 MAY 1862 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
STEVENSON - Birth: 26 APR 1864 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
JAMES STEVENSON - Birth: 06 MAY 1865 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
WALTER MOFFAT STEVENSON - 17 JAN 1867 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
ROBERT STEVENSON - Birth: 25 MAR 1870 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
--------------------------------------
ALEXANDER STEVENSON
ANN WOTHERSPOON
Marriage: 16 DEC 1870 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
ANN STEVENSON - Birth: 15 NOV 1871 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
JOHN STEVENSON - Birth: 20 JUN 1873 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
-------------------------------------
By the way there are 235 "Wotherspoons" in Lanarkshire in 1851.... Not just as many as the "Smellies" but still a lot! I'll get the other known family in censuses 1851 & 1861 at some time - fortunately nothing now urgent, but if there is someone in particular then please just say and i'll try.
Jack
Thanks, and you can relax - not giving you any more problems! It was just that the only suitable Ann WOTHERSPOON i could see in 1851 was newly wed Ann WILSON, and that's what prompted my question. Peter Wilson was born in the Paisley area.
So yet another DC with mistakes - and probably won't be the last either!
You'll have all these by now - an LDS member certainly has some interest.
--
PETER WILSON
ANN WOTHERSPOON
Marriage: 16 JUN 1850 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
[submitted by a member of the LDS Church]
Peter WILSON - b abt 1852 Gartsherrie, Old Monkland
WILLIAM WILSON - Birth: 24 APR 1856 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
WILLIAM WILSON - Birth: 30 DEC 1858 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
MARGARET WILSON - Birth: 15 JAN 1861 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
CHRISTINA WILSON - Birth: 09 JAN 1864 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
---------------------------------------
ALEXANDER STEVENSON
BETSY CUNNINGHAM
Marriage: 24 NOV 1850 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
[Record submitted by a member of the LDS Church]
WILLIAM STEVENSON - Birth: 11 OCT 1856 New Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
MARGARET STEVENSON - Birth: 11 SEP 1858 New Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
ALEXANDER STEVENSON - Birth: 17 JUN 1860 New Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
ARCHIBALD MCDOUGALL STEVENSON - 05 MAY 1862 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
STEVENSON - Birth: 26 APR 1864 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
JAMES STEVENSON - Birth: 06 MAY 1865 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
WALTER MOFFAT STEVENSON - 17 JAN 1867 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
ROBERT STEVENSON - Birth: 25 MAR 1870 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
--------------------------------------
ALEXANDER STEVENSON
ANN WOTHERSPOON
Marriage: 16 DEC 1870 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
ANN STEVENSON - Birth: 15 NOV 1871 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
JOHN STEVENSON - Birth: 20 JUN 1873 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
-------------------------------------
By the way there are 235 "Wotherspoons" in Lanarkshire in 1851.... Not just as many as the "Smellies" but still a lot! I'll get the other known family in censuses 1851 & 1861 at some time - fortunately nothing now urgent, but if there is someone in particular then please just say and i'll try.
Jack
-
bobj-kirk
- Posts: 30
- Joined: Wed Mar 16, 2005 2:49 am
- Location: Yellowknife, NT, Canada
Jack,
I uploaded the Ann Wotherspoon / Thom or Shaw marriage registration to the gallery, but I guess the admin has to release it or something. After he does, maybe you could take a look at it and see what you think the last name is.
I just got my CD of the 1851 Census from Lanarkshire FHS. It only took about 3 weeks, I am quite impressed. I checked for Wotherspoons, and I only got 234 when I combined Wotherspoon, Witherspoon and Wetherspoon, then I noticed wootherspoon and I matched your number of 235.
I do have a question about the 1851 census. On the listings you gave me before, and on my CD, I find two parish numbers on a number of census returns. For example, you gave me 647 (657) for Hamilton and 652 (634) for Old Monkland.
When I look up those numbers, I find:
647 - Hamilton
657 - Symington
652 - Old Monkland
634 - Covington & Thankerton
I thought maybe the census overlapped parishes, but these parishes are so far apart, it doesn't seem likely to be the case. Can you explain what the second parish number means on these censuses?
-Bob
I uploaded the Ann Wotherspoon / Thom or Shaw marriage registration to the gallery, but I guess the admin has to release it or something. After he does, maybe you could take a look at it and see what you think the last name is.
I just got my CD of the 1851 Census from Lanarkshire FHS. It only took about 3 weeks, I am quite impressed. I checked for Wotherspoons, and I only got 234 when I combined Wotherspoon, Witherspoon and Wetherspoon, then I noticed wootherspoon and I matched your number of 235.
I do have a question about the 1851 census. On the listings you gave me before, and on my CD, I find two parish numbers on a number of census returns. For example, you gave me 647 (657) for Hamilton and 652 (634) for Old Monkland.
When I look up those numbers, I find:
647 - Hamilton
657 - Symington
652 - Old Monkland
634 - Covington & Thankerton
I thought maybe the census overlapped parishes, but these parishes are so far apart, it doesn't seem likely to be the case. Can you explain what the second parish number means on these censuses?
-Bob
-
Jack
- Posts: 1808
- Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 5:34 pm
- Location: Paisley
Hi Bob,
Delighted to hear it arrived so soon - it's a very useful tool. Once it's loaded you don't need to insert the CD every time - just click on your shortcut.
Pity it can't be minimised if you have other pages on view, but you can easily minimise them instead.
It takes a wee while to get used to as it's different from many other name indexes, but it does have plenty of search options that others don't have. I found the 235 Wotherspoons by searching for Surnames ending in "spoon" - this covered Wetherspoon, Witherspoon, and as you found a Wootherspoon! There are various combinations for searching.
If say i find a single name after a family search and want to know who they were with i take a note of the number then use the drop down boxes to search.
For eg - a William Wotherspoon 42, born New Monkland, Parish 625, District 7, Page 12, Line 13. But there doesn't seem to be others of the same surname with him.
So to find out who he was with - select in the drop down boxes
Parish - starts with 625.
District - starts with 7.
Order by Page.
Then click Search.
Scroll down to page 12, then look to see who was on the lines before him on 13 to see the possible family he was with. And after too, as he may have been a household head. Or even living alone. A look at the film will be needed to be sure though.
You can of of course just enter a surname and Order by Family - this gives all of that name only in family order. Sometimes you'll notice that one line number is missing in the group - that again is when the above search will find out what that missing different name is.
--
As regards the numbers 647 (657) Hamilton & 652 (634) Old Monkland. The 1st no. as you found out was indeed the Parish No. But in 1851 i think they were trying a new Parish numbering system (that 2nd No.) - it didn't seem to work because 1851 is the only census year that has a Parish No. and another no. in brackets after it.
I certainly found it a bit confusing - they should've used the commonsense way of thinking - "If it isn't broken - don't try to fix it".
This trial system would, i presume, have been used for all Parishes?, but i'm sure there's someone who'll be able to explain it all much better - over to you Davie!
Jack
Delighted to hear it arrived so soon - it's a very useful tool. Once it's loaded you don't need to insert the CD every time - just click on your shortcut.
Pity it can't be minimised if you have other pages on view, but you can easily minimise them instead.
It takes a wee while to get used to as it's different from many other name indexes, but it does have plenty of search options that others don't have. I found the 235 Wotherspoons by searching for Surnames ending in "spoon" - this covered Wetherspoon, Witherspoon, and as you found a Wootherspoon! There are various combinations for searching.
If say i find a single name after a family search and want to know who they were with i take a note of the number then use the drop down boxes to search.
For eg - a William Wotherspoon 42, born New Monkland, Parish 625, District 7, Page 12, Line 13. But there doesn't seem to be others of the same surname with him.
So to find out who he was with - select in the drop down boxes
Parish - starts with 625.
District - starts with 7.
Order by Page.
Then click Search.
Scroll down to page 12, then look to see who was on the lines before him on 13 to see the possible family he was with. And after too, as he may have been a household head. Or even living alone. A look at the film will be needed to be sure though.
You can of of course just enter a surname and Order by Family - this gives all of that name only in family order. Sometimes you'll notice that one line number is missing in the group - that again is when the above search will find out what that missing different name is.
--
As regards the numbers 647 (657) Hamilton & 652 (634) Old Monkland. The 1st no. as you found out was indeed the Parish No. But in 1851 i think they were trying a new Parish numbering system (that 2nd No.) - it didn't seem to work because 1851 is the only census year that has a Parish No. and another no. in brackets after it.
I certainly found it a bit confusing - they should've used the commonsense way of thinking - "If it isn't broken - don't try to fix it".
This trial system would, i presume, have been used for all Parishes?, but i'm sure there's someone who'll be able to explain it all much better - over to you Davie!
Jack