Stuck with cross border Mackenzie's.....

[jemhay]

LOL That was me - but thanks anyway!

I should add that I'm still trying to connect Kenneth (my great grandfather b.1874) to his father Colin. I still haven't managed to locate his birth yet. Neither can I find a Colin connected with the police force in England except a "Mackenzie" with no first name, in 1881 in the north of england, who is married and in the force but lodging at the time and no family with him. This could be him - which would mean the Scottish family I have found, are not mine. Kenneth's birth on the Scottish Census is a couple of years out, too - so I'm wondering if my excitement is a little premature......

[jemhay]

I hope I'm not breaking any site rules by dragging up an old thread - but it seems right under the circumstances to follow up on the subject and ask for a little more advice if I may.......

It would seem that my excitement of the above find was misplaced. I followed the family to a point where I was able to eliminate them and realise they weren't mine at all - how disappointing.....oh well.....

What was causing confusion, was that Colin was much older than I'd anticipated. His first wife Margaret died young and he married for a second time in London, to a MUCH younger woman (24 years younger), my gt gt grandmother Esther BUCKERIDGE! Add that to changing occupations (he retired from the Police force in 1864 and became a Clerk) and it all fell into place - eventually. (Oh - and it turned out to be the London Metropolitan Police - not a Scottish force after all!)

I actually had my gt grandfather Kenneth's birth certificate in my possession all the while, and had been looking at his father Colin and family on the Census, but had discounted them due to non-matching information!!

The fact that Colin died in 1880 when Kenneth was just seven years old meant they never appeared on a Census together. I had to tackle them from a 'sideways' angle. So - I now have various BMD's and Census records relating to the family and of course a little more information to go on as a result. So I am now once again north of the border trying to trace the Scottish side

According to Colin's marriage cert to Esther, his father was Kenneth MCKENZIE (fabulous...lol) and occupation stated as "SOLDIER". It does not state 'deceased' so I'm hoping that means he was still alive at the time (1858), but I know it's no guarantee.

According to the Census and his death certificate, Colin was born in Inverness, Invernessshire, around 1814, so I'm currently guestimating Kenneth's birth at abt 1790. On a search of the 1841 Scottish Census, I find a Kenneth MCKENSIE (with an "S") resident in Inverness born abt 1791 with the occupation of "ARMY V"

Can anyone tell me what "ARMY V" from the 1841 Scottish Census means? I'm assuming "Veteran" maybe? He would have been at least 50 at the time.

I also found an OPR on Scotlands People that looks incredibly like it must be my Colin's son from his first marriage. A William MACKENZIE baptised in Inverness, Invernessshire in April 1841 born 9th March 1841, to a Colin MACKENZIE (occupation Clerk - which he was in London after leaving the force, and he didn't join until August 1841 after Williams birth so maybe he was a clerk before as well), and a Margaret CAMPBELL. The name margaret matches that of his first wife, and they have three son's in London on the 1861 Census, Donald born Aberdeen and Colin and William born Inverness (william in 1841). The really exciting part is that it gives Colin's "abode" as LONDON. Two witnesses are Kenneth MACKENZIE (his father?) and Norman CAMPBELL (likely some relation to Margaret...?)

Is it possible then, that William was BORN and maybe even Registered in England (although it does state Scotand on the Census), but baptised in Scotland?

This is so exciting for me - as it's been almost ten years now since I began looking for my Scottish roots!

However - more brick walls!! I cannot find any birth records for the other two boys, yet William is on the IGI and Scotlands people. I cannot find a marriage for Colin to a Margaret CAMPBELL (though there is one to a Margaret MCKENZIE in 1839 which is also on Scotlands people, but Colin is a "Spirit Dealer"). I cannot locate the family on either the Scottish or English 1841 Census. I'm thinking they were seperate at the time - Colin in London (or England at least) and Margaret at home in Scotland with three small children waiting to go join her Husband - but I cannot find a Margaret that fits mine for certain. According to Census and her death cert, she was born abt 1821, but all I have for location is "Scotland"

Any advice, comments, suggestions or even confirmation that I'm on the right track would be most welcome.

Thanks in advance (sorry it's so long winded )

[SarahND]

Always nice to bring up an old thread and see that progress has been made! I assume you have found them also in 1851? They are there in Mile End Old Town at the Police Station:

Colin Mc Kenzie, 35
Margaret age 31
Donald age 12
Colin age 11
William age 10

All born Scotland

I realize this doesn't get you their birth records, but every tidbit helps!

All the best,
Sarah

[Currie]

Hello Jemhay,

You’ll probably just have to guess as to what Army V meant to the person who wrote it down. On FreeCen 1841 http://freecen.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl if you search for an occupation Army V* with no other fields completed there are only two results, both shown as ‘Army Volunteer’, one aged 58, the other 39, and both at Penninghame in Wigtownshire.

I can’t see your fellow on 1841 FreeCen and Inverness is supposed to be 100% complete.

The London Times has a number of items that may be referring to your policeman. A search for COLIN MACKENZIE POLICE will bring up one in 1845. A search for INSPECTOR MACKENZIE AND POLICE will bring up quite a few between 1853 and 1865. That’s when they fizzle out and if that’s about when he retired maybe they refer to him.

Access to the Times Digital Archive appears to be still possible as per the first posting in this thread. viewtopic.php?t=11928&highlight=tryinfomarks

All the best,
Alan

[nelmit]

Looks like they were in Inverness in 1841 -

WILLIAM MACKENZIE

Event(s):
Birth:
09 MAR 1841
Christening:
16 APR 1841 Inverness, Inverness, Scotland

Parents:
Father: COLIN MACKENZIE
Mother: MARGARET CAMPBELL

Regards,
Annette

Later ..............sorry just seen that you have this.

[JustJean]

Some interesting bits to toss out but still nothing concrete....

No siting of Colin on the 1841 census but clearly they were in Inverness as the 1841 birth and christening attest to. So let's explore the father named Kenneth and the witness named Kenneth. Of all the Ken* M*ck*n* that do appear on the 1841 census in Inverness I'd have to agree that the one you've found labelled as Army V is the most intriguing. However if you view the original image on SP you'll gain further insights into the family.

Here is the ancestry version:

1841 CENSUS
Name: Kenneth McKensie
Age: 55
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1786
Gender: Male
Where born: Inverness, Scotland

Civil Parish: Inverness
County: Inverness
Address: Milllead Street
Occupation: Army V
Parish Number: 98
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Kenneth McKensie 55
Hellen McKensie 45
Norman McKensie 10
Mary McKensie 8
Hellen McKensie 6

Now the SP original will tell you:

Occupation isn't Army V....but more likely Army P. as in Army Pensioner.
Kenneth was born in the county of Inverness.
Hellen was born in England
Norman was born out of the county
Mary was born out of the county
Hellen was born in Inverness

a search for any of this supposed family group in 1851 is a tough one. I'm not seeing a confirmed siting of any at the moment.

I did however find an interesting IGI submitted birth/christening....

1. NORMAN MC KENZIE - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 24 SEP 1830 Aberdeen, Aberdeen, Scotland

Father's name is Kenneth McKenzie and mother's name is Helen Hodge.......and so just for laughs searched for the DC of a *len M*cK*n* other name HODGE and there was only one....

1869 MCKENZIE ELLEN HODGE F 78 INVERNESS /INVERNESS

This isn't overly informative but tells us that Ellen was the widow of Kenneth McKenzie (no occupation stated). She died at the Poorhouse so the informant is the governor. Her parents were John Hodge wine merchant and Betsy no maiden name.

It looks like that this could be the Hellen from the 1841 census. It also looks like Norman might have been born in Aberdeen around 1830. The later census of Colin and family shows his son Donald had been born in Aberdeen. The chronology is making all the little bits fit into a hypothetical match. If I had to guess Colin and his first wife married in Aberdeen but of course I can't find a record of that!!

I'm also not finding a DC for Kenneth McKenzie in Inverness. There is one in the indexes with no image but he comes across as a little young

1864 MCKENZIE KENNETH FRASER M 66 INVERNESS /INVERNESS 098/00 0250

but still it might be nice to see if the original could be consulted by GROS to confirm wife and/or parents. If it proves not to be the right one then he might have died most anywhere and that might be why I'm not finding them on a later census. Of course if this one found in 1841 died prior to 1851 then the theory that he is still alive in 1858 could eliminate this 1841 as a possibility.

Warned you there was nothing concrete here......

Best wishes
Jean

[jemhay]

Hi Everybody!

......and WOW! What a fabulous response - thank you all so much

SarahND, yes I do have the Census for 1851; but thank you so much for going to the trouble of looking for me. It's very much appreciated!

Currie - thank you SO MUCH for the link to the newspaper articles! I have spent hours looking through those and I'm sure you're right that some of them are indeed my gt gt Grandad! I just love getting this kind of info!

nelmit - That's ok - and thank you anyway! I got the actual image from Scotlands People and the reason I am convinced this is the right family, is that William's father Colin's Abode is given as "London" Not being able to find any of the family on either Scotland or England Census, leads me to believe they were temporarily separated.

(I just hope to god someone isn't going to come along and burst my bubble by telling me there's a London in Scotland).

JustJean Thank you so much! I will definitely look further into that little lot! I did wonder about the Hellen and Kenneth - he certainly is the right age. The fact that Hellen was born in England makes it more intriguing to me; even though since I posted the update to this thread I received more information confirming that Colin's mother was indeed, Isabella BUT, the reason I didn't find him first time around was due to a second marriage, so maybe the same applies to his father and Hellen is his second wife? Maybe being a Soldier, meant that he came to England as a Widower, met Hellen and took her back to Scotland? Maybe he left his first wife? Hmmmm.....

Here's what I found out whilst you were all busy on my behalf....(and I can't tell you how grateful I am!)

I managed to get actual images of Colin's Pension and discharge from the Police in 1864 from the NA overnight via emails just for 8.50 (best eight quid I ever spent!! ) and that tells me the following:

That he was 50 years old at Retirement in July 1864
Born 25th Oct 1813, Inverness (I know his baptism is 29th Oct 1814, so either he is a bit out, or he was a year old at the time - or it's a different Colin - but not too likely eh? Too many other 'matching' facts)
He is Married
Father: Kenneth Mckenzie
Mother: Isabella
Present address: 44 Ernest Street, Bermondsey, London.

The 1861 England Census has him at 45 Ernest Street!! So that all ties in nicely. He moved around A LOT. Probably due to his work, and when he was promoted he switched Divisions within the Force, and all the addresses from various sources all fit in with the dates and places he would have worked.

It's interesting that the only birth of their children on record so far is William. I know they all survived until at least 1851, because they are all at home with their parents in London. I suppose there is a possibility they were BORN in Scotland, but registered in England?? Anyone know? Colin was living in London according to William's baptism. Maybe they went back just for that? Maybe they were all born south of the border?

Colin junior (b.1840) disappears without trace after the 1851. But both Donald and William appear to be alive and well and working at the Docks in London in 1861, after which they too disappear (well nothing concrete on them yet anyway).

Back to Colin senior's parents Kenneth MCKENZIE and Isabella (or Isobel/Isoble) ROSS (that's who I believe her to be so far based on what I've found)

I find four births of children to a Kenneth McKenzie and an Isabel ROSS in Inverness as follows (from the parish images at SP):

25 Aug 1804 Kenneth McKenzie, Tayler and his spouse Isoble Ross had a child Baptised by W.H.Ross called Donald. Al: McGilvery & Duncan Cameron (witnesess?)

14 Jul 1806 Kenneth McKinzie, Tylor and his spouse Isoble Ross had a child baptised by Mr. Alex Rose called Janet. William Fraser & Alex McGilvray Witn.

9 Nov 1808 Kenneth Mckensie, Taylor and his spouse Isabel Ross had a child baptised by Mr. Alex Rose named Isabel. Witnesses William Fraser & Alex McTavish

Oct 1813/1814 is Colin - but there is no image available so I have ordered the extract.

Kenneth could then, have been a Taylor (Tailor I presume) and became a Soldier later in life? I know his son did that to me as well, which is what got in the way in the first place! Maybe Tylor/Taylor is not Tailor but something obscure and uniquely Scottish?)

Another very long post - sorry

[jemhay]

Forgot to add Marriages I've found for Kenneth and Isabella!

There are three or four, but this has the most "matches" (to the "Taylor" kenneth anyway) I can't find a matching military Kenneth

28 Jan 1803 In the Parish of Knockbain - Kenneth Mckinzie, Taylor Knockbain and Isobel Ross both this Parish.

I think I'm more confused than ever! Isn't Knockbain the "Black Isle" and miles away from Inverness? Is it common to have moved so far in those days?

[jemhay]

I've just taken a closer look at the 1841 Scotland Census image JustJean mentions above, and noticed something interesing....

If Colin's parents are indeed, Kenneth MCKENZIE and Isabella ROSS - I note there is a Margaret ROSS living alone aged 75 right next door to Kenneth and Hellen!! Could this possibly be the mother of his deceased wife Isabella? (assuming she is deceased of course) or just a co-incidence?

[jemhay]

Oh no - what an idiot I am! I just checked the map and Knockbain isn't that far from Inverness!!

Ooooh I'm getting excited now The only potential 'spanner' in the works is this "Taylor" occupation thing.....