a bit of a brick wall

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 9:54 pm

Hi Sarah,
Firstly, very well done on what you've discovered. =D>
After being unable to find a suitable Roddy or Effie in 1841,
i was leaning towards wrong info on the DC.

And i cheated on William McNAB; i didn't use a parent search...!
Just looked for one born 1849 +/- 2yrs in Lanarkshire, and up he popped.

The IGI is, as you say, usually quite flexible on names,
but it does appear to be a wee bit fussy at times.
My G-GF Peter was born 1855 as McNICCOL,
but an IGI search for him as McNICOL won't find him!
Jack

thomsos · Post by **thomsos** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 10:17 pm

SarahND wrote:Well, In a parent search on the IGI, there are 10 children listed for James McNab and Jean McKean (William doesn't show up for some reason). The eldest son is George and, in 1855, there is a daughter named Elisabeth Reid McNab... No children named either Roderick or Euphemia. This is your James' family, I assume? Do you know any other reason he would have named a daughter Elisabeth Reid?

Sarah

This is James family ok, but I'm still not getting very far, I've tried quite a few searches on SP for death for McNab's born around the same time as James, but nothing jumping out at me.
There are 3 middle names in James family, Morrison and Mckean I know about, but then we have Reid and Shearer in the equation! maybe it should be Geo. McNab and Eliz Reid
anybody got any other thoughts?
Sandra

Post by **SarahND** » Wed Jan 10, 2007 11:36 pm

Jack wrote:The IGI is, as you say, usually quite flexible on names,
but it does appear to be a wee bit fussy at times.
My G-GF Peter was born 1855 as McNICCOL,
but an IGI search for him as McNICOL won't find him!

You're right, Jack. I have noticed before that the IGI doesn't handle double vs. single letters well. Soundex, I think, mostly counts the number of consonants and doesn't recognize double letters since it just looks at them as a sequence of two consonants. When I look for Giles relatives, I also have to search for Gilles, since they don't reliably come up in the same search.

But I'm just stalling here, not wanting to tell Sandra that I'm not finding anything

Tried to find George McNab in 1851 and 1861-- no luck. He must have died-- or changed his name

There is a possible Elizabeth Reid in 1851: she is in Glasgow St Paul, a stay-maker, age 48, born in Glasgow. But she is living alone so no clues as to who she is...
She doesn't show up as Elizabeth McNab that I can find.

Sorry, this family is tricky

I'll sleep on it and maybe in the morning my brain will be working better

k Or someone on the other side of the world will have solved it while we sleep

Regards,
Sarah

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 1:48 am

Hi Sarah,
There is this; i've no more details though.
--
1851 census 644-1 (551) Ed 17 p 10 (Outer High or St. Paul's)
Mrs McNAB, 50
Andrew McNAB, 21
--
No George, but a possible for Elizabeth?
Jack

Post by **SarahND** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:58 am

Yes, Jack, that could be them, at 34 Shuttle St, both born in Hamilton, Lanark. Mrs. McNab is a Tambourer, Andrew is an Ag Lab. The only trouble is that in 1861 that Mrs. McNab is revealed to be Mary, BUT, Andrew has conveniently married someone named Euphemia, just to round things out. Maybe Andrew's nickname was "Roderick"

Gallowgate 330, Glasgow St John
Mary McNab, 60,mother, tambourer, born in Hamilton
Andrew McNab, 31, head, fish dealer, born in Hamilton
Euphemia McNab, 29, wife, born in Edinburgh
Fannie Harkner, 18, lodger, pricer cotton mill, born in Lanark
Mary Muirehead, 18, lodger, pricer cotton mill, born in Springburn, Lanark

Cheers

Sarah

DavidWW · Post by **DavidWW** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:15 am

Maybe not the best place to post the question, but has anyone ever come across a full definition of the fuzzy logic system that IGI/FamilySearch.org uses in terms of spelling variations for surnames, never mind given name variants?

As regards the latter I can imagine that lookup tables are involved, but I'm unsure about surnames, - as an equivalent database would be truly massive.

That latter comment about surnames in the sense that the I would have to believe that the IGI/FamilySearch.org search engine sometimes gives better results than I would have expected from the use of a Soundex based system alone. [NB there are several different "flavours" of Soundex.]

On the other hand, as neatly demonstrated here by Sarah, there are occasions, especially in a Scottish context, when the IGI/FamilySearch.org search engine appears to miss out very obvious cognate hits..............

David

Post by **SarahND** » Thu Jan 11, 2007 10:44 am

Hi David,
I would also like to know the criteria they use since, as you note, it is not obviously soundex in the usual flavour. As a phonetician, I have a number of quarrels to pick with soundex, since it misses very regular sound changes that many languages make., i.e. the l/r alternation. I had an elusive Sherman ancestor who was finally found under Shelman, no thanks to soundex! Another year it was the "r-less" pronunciation that threw off the enumerator and came out as "Sheman". Still not caught by soundex. And double letters are a typical spelling variation that should definitely be recognized.
I'd be interested if you find how FamilySearch is doing this.
Regards,
Sarah

thomsos · Post by **thomsos** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:44 pm

Hi me again, Can I have an opinion on this,-
I now have the DC for John McNab b1819, married to Margaret Shearer in 1839, and on John’s DC it has his parents as George McNab and Elizabeth Reid.
How certain can I be that my James McNab is the brother of John, bearing in mind that on James DC his parent’s names are Roderick McNab and Euphemia Beaton, but also James had a daughter called Margaret Shearer McNab b1863, and were do you think Roderick and Euphemia fit in!!

Haven’t included any quotes as there were quite a few I could have included, so you may have to read the whole post
hope this all makes sence

Post by **SarahND** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 4:04 pm

All in all, I'm inclined to think that someone was pulling names and occupations out of a hat for James' dc...

Just to cover all possibilities, I tried searching for boatmen named McNab in the census.

There is a Robert McNabb, boatman, in Denny, Stirlingshire in 1841, age 45, born Stirlingshire
His family is Margaret McNabb, 45, born Stirlingshire
Alexr McNabb, 15, born Stirlingshire
Helen McNabb, 12, born Stirlingshire
Mary McNabb, 8, born Stirlingshire
Thomas McNabb, 1, born Stirlingshire

In 1851 he is in Kilsyth, Stirling, one of TWO Robert McNab, boatmen...
Robert McNab, 50, boatman, born in Falkirk, Stirling
Margt McNab, 50, born Denny
Thomas McNab, 10, born Kilsyth
Agnes McNab, 7. born Kilsyth
John McNab, 4, born Kilsyth

Robert McNab #2 in Kilsyth, Stirling, in 1851, 58, boatman, born Pre??, Stirling
Mary McNab, 50, born Denny
Agnes McNab, 15, born Kilsyth
Thomas McNab, 10, born Kilsyth
William McNab, 7, born Kilsyth

Then there is Archibald Beaton, in Tobermory, Argyll in 1841, 50, born in Argyll, who is also a boatman
His family consists of:
Cathrine Beaton, 45, born in Argyll
Jessie Beaton, 11, born in Argyll
Cathrine Beaton, 7, born in Argyll

There is no rod* who is a boatman... Could William have had a speech impediment that made "Robert" come out sounding like "Roderick" and "Mary" or "Margaret" come out like "Euphemia"?

Sorry, I'm not being very helpful

And then there is the Roderick Beaton found by Annette, indexed as "Beason" in the ancestry database in 1841, although the rest of his family are all "Beaton"

Rodrick Beason, 45, turner, in Barony, born in Scotland
Jane Beaton, 40, born in Scotland
Daniel Beaton, 15, born in Lanarkshire
Sarah Beaton, 15, born in Lanarkshire
John Beaton, 10, born in Lanarkshire
Rodrick Beaton, 5, born in Lanarkshire

None of these folk seem to have anything to do with your James. I can understand why your head's spinning! Unless Roddy and Effie came from Ireland? In which case, good luck!

In short, it seems too much of a coincidence that two of James' daughters were Elizabeth Reid and Margaret Shearer. He's got to belong to that family. No idea where that info on his dc came from though

k

Anybody else have a bright idea?
Sarah

thomsos · Post by **thomsos** » Sat Jan 13, 2007 5:23 pm

Thanks Sarah, I think I will go with Johns DC, maybe Roderick and Euphemia will crop up somewhere else and all will be explained

there is one other thing maybe you could explain, on some of the births I have Barony and some Gorbals, can they be the same place, I always thought Barony was the Bridgeton area

Sandra