Here's my two bobs worth.My personal belief is that everybody has a physical body & a spirit.That spirit is eternal,the physical is laid down at death but come the resurrection body(perfected) will be reunited with spirit.
Having said that many bodies are just vaporised(think Hiroshioma World Trade Centre).People thank God donate their organs/skin/bone or indeed their bodies for others to learn on.Although I believe much of the teaching is now done by computer virtual programmes.Their bodies will be restored & resurrected too.
This is an emotive issue & one where I can see both sides of the matter.On one these children were seen in life as a burden on their Father & the State.In death they were seen as "specimens" for others to learn on.
I have attended post-mortems & the dead were treated with as much respect(more than some) as the living.
I think that if the Family wish to have these children laid to rest somewhere where their passing can be marked then that's what should happen.
Maybe what would be more fitting would be some kind of a memorial funded by the University to these two wee boys.A living memorial like a day out for some deprived children or something.Let them ask some alumini who learnt from these wee boys remains to dip their hands in their pockets for it.
The Hopetoun Quarry Murder
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joette
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Scott Monument
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Chris Paton
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Chris
I have been thinking long and hard on the subject of this thread.
Having no religious connection, I like many others have stated, believe that if there is a soul, the vessel it is carried in on this mortal coil is our bodies. Therefore the body is discarded at the time of death, and really means nothing. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
As for the historical context of the thread, as we know things happened in those days that we would not tolerate today. And more importantly we cannot change history, only learn from it in a positive way we hope!
Personally, I can see no benefit from trying to bury the boys remains now, as was previously stated, where are the other remains anyway!
All that will be achieved is placing the remains in a place that is not where the other remains are interred.
Without meaning to be offensive, when we try to impose our current beliefs on the past generation it is fraught with danger. Again we cannot change history.
A long and hard thought of reply to a very difficult dilemma. Written with my social work hat on.
David
If my memory serves me correctly there was a thread on the subject of neo-natal and stillborn deaths in the forum but I cant recall for sure.
I have been thinking long and hard on the subject of this thread.
Having no religious connection, I like many others have stated, believe that if there is a soul, the vessel it is carried in on this mortal coil is our bodies. Therefore the body is discarded at the time of death, and really means nothing. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
As for the historical context of the thread, as we know things happened in those days that we would not tolerate today. And more importantly we cannot change history, only learn from it in a positive way we hope!
Personally, I can see no benefit from trying to bury the boys remains now, as was previously stated, where are the other remains anyway!
All that will be achieved is placing the remains in a place that is not where the other remains are interred.
Without meaning to be offensive, when we try to impose our current beliefs on the past generation it is fraught with danger. Again we cannot change history.
A long and hard thought of reply to a very difficult dilemma. Written with my social work hat on.
David
If my memory serves me correctly there was a thread on the subject of neo-natal and stillborn deaths in the forum but I cant recall for sure.
Stewie
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Searching for: Anderson, Balks, Barton, Courtney, Davidson, Downie, Dunlop, Edward, Flucker, Galloway, Graham, Guthrie, Higgins, Laurie, Mathieson, McLean, McLuckie, Miln, Nielson, Payne, Phillips, Porterfield, Stewart, Watson
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Anne H
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Hi Chris,
What a sad life and sorrowful ending for the two young boys!
I too have been following this thread closely and find my emotions going all over the place. I agree with some opinions expressed, and the reasons given, but not all.
My personal belief is that each human being has a soul that never dies. The body is simply the outer shell that is left when the soul leaves. I also believe that each human being is given a conscience, a sense of right and wrong and sometimes we just choose to ignore that sense. The doctors knew exactly what they were doing and knew it was wrong…even acknowledged it as such. I’m sure their decision was made for what they believed would benefit others, right or wrong, and has no doubt helped the medical world through the years, but do they still need the “specimens” as a teaching tool, or are the body parts now simply a trophy for the university…can they find another way of teaching?
I too am a donor, but then, I chose to be. The children’s family didn’t get the opportunity to make the choice. Now that Maureen has come along and requested the return of the remains of her cousins for burial (irregardless of where the rest of the remains are buried), I would sincerely hope that the university would have the decency to honour her request and right the wrong of so many years ago.
Regards,
Anne H
What a sad life and sorrowful ending for the two young boys!
I too have been following this thread closely and find my emotions going all over the place. I agree with some opinions expressed, and the reasons given, but not all.
My personal belief is that each human being has a soul that never dies. The body is simply the outer shell that is left when the soul leaves. I also believe that each human being is given a conscience, a sense of right and wrong and sometimes we just choose to ignore that sense. The doctors knew exactly what they were doing and knew it was wrong…even acknowledged it as such. I’m sure their decision was made for what they believed would benefit others, right or wrong, and has no doubt helped the medical world through the years, but do they still need the “specimens” as a teaching tool, or are the body parts now simply a trophy for the university…can they find another way of teaching?
I too am a donor, but then, I chose to be. The children’s family didn’t get the opportunity to make the choice. Now that Maureen has come along and requested the return of the remains of her cousins for burial (irregardless of where the rest of the remains are buried), I would sincerely hope that the university would have the decency to honour her request and right the wrong of so many years ago.
Regards,
Anne H
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Chris Paton
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Hi David,DavidMK wrote:Hi Chris, further to your comments on how stillborn babies were treated, do you know if there were any official records kept? I am looking specifically in Glasgow in the early 1930s
David
The statutory register of stillbirths in Scotland commenced in 1939. I don't know if individual hospitals kept records on stillbirths before that though.
Regards,
Chris
Tha an lasair nad anam aig meadhan do bhith
Nas làidir 's nas motha na riaghaltas no rìgh.
Nas làidir 's nas motha na riaghaltas no rìgh.
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Chris Paton
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H David, thanks for that.StewL wrote:I have been thinking long and hard on the subject of this thread.
Having no religious connection, I like many others have stated, believe that if there is a soul, the vessel it is carried in on this mortal coil is our bodies. Therefore the body is discarded at the time of death, and really means nothing. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust.
As for the historical context of the thread, as we know things happened in those days that we would not tolerate today. And more importantly we cannot change history, only learn from it in a positive way we hope!
...
Without meaning to be offensive, when we try to impose our current beliefs on the past generation it is fraught with danger. Again we cannot change history.
Just to respond, Maureen does have religious beliefs, so I think it is difficult to say that it doesn't matter what happens to the remains. To Maureen it does.
I take the point on learning from history, but surely we can only do that when we receive acknowledgement of wrong practice in the past. The university won't even respond to Maureen. To me, that is just bad manners, if anything else.
Regarding the imposition of current beliefs - again I make the point, Smith was the one who suggested what he was doing was wrong, in his own book. I can only agree with him. And it really wasn't that long ago! Whilst we cannot change the recent past, we can certainly deal with the present, and this is an issue affecting the family in the present, who are all horrified and dismayed at the discovery.
Chris
Tha an lasair nad anam aig meadhan do bhith
Nas làidir 's nas motha na riaghaltas no rìgh.
Nas làidir 's nas motha na riaghaltas no rìgh.
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Chris Paton
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Hi Anne, thanks for that.Anne H wrote:Hi Chris,
What a sad life and sorrowful ending for the two young boys!
...
Regards,
Anne H
It is interesting, isn't it? My own grandmother donated her body to Queen's University in Belfast after her death in 1978, on the condition that her remains be returned to the family after two years, as she too wished for closure on her life, and knew the hurt that some members of our family might have to think she had become some perpetual specimen somewhere. Queen's were fantastic and completely honoured her wishes, and there was a cremation and memorial ceremony for my gran in 1980. As Maureen's grandson put it, 93 years on, maybe Edinburgh University has had the boys' remains long enough?
Chris
Tha an lasair nad anam aig meadhan do bhith
Nas làidir 's nas motha na riaghaltas no rìgh.
Nas làidir 's nas motha na riaghaltas no rìgh.
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Marella
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For some time now I have been thinking about answering this thread. When Chris first emailed me about it and I came on and read all your replies, my first reaction to this was simply sorrow. My thoughts were that I was being persecuted for my faith and my believe, which by the way you all don’t seem to want to understand, nor do you see my point of view regarding it. Then I thought, okay so they are all caught up and don’t know a hill of beans about who I am or why I’m doing this, maybe I need to make it clearer. Then I figured I’d just stay clear. But...I’m Irish, we don’t stay clear. So, here I am and I’m going to attempt to explain this all to you, as best as I can. Although to be honest, I have a bit of a problem putting it all in words. But I’ll try.
My Johnston family has endured sorrow in many shapes and forms. We’ve had numerous tragedy, the boys being just one instant. We’ve had another brutal murder, a child that was swept off the side of the ship when coming to America, 13 of our children died in epidemics of diphtheria and one child burned to death as he jumped over a bon fire on Christmas. We’ve had our fair share of pain and sorrow. When I first found out about the boys, I cried and I told Chris I was angry that my family didn’t do anything to help them. Until recently I believed that, but have since found out differently. My great grandfather John Campbell Johnston was going back to Scotland to retrieve them and bring them to the U.S. when word came of their disappearance and subsequently of their murder. John was also told by someone in Scotland to leave well enough alone when he wanted to bring them alive to the U.S. and it is believed that the person that told him was Higgins. Of course we can’t be sure of that now.
But rather than go into my family history, I want to make a few things clear here. I do not have a problem with someone donating (operative word here is donating) their bodies to science. Nor do I believe that the medical and scientific world doesn’t need these type of specimens, they do. Many of you wonder where the boys are buried or what the family thought was buried. I have found out again from my family that my family pooled their money together to bury them in Scotland (I know where and I will tell Chris, but quite honestly it’s no one’s business but mine). They were buried, and not in pauper’s graves, although there are no stones to mark their places. What bothers me here, and what has been the reason for my wanting to do this is two fold. One - Smith admitted his quilt. He admitted that he “stole” these boys. He knew he did wrong, because he knew that there was a family to bury them. He admitted his guilt in his own writings and he admitted to his assistant that he did it, and his assistant was shocked at what he did. But that doesn’t seem to matter one hill of beans now does it?
Secondly - here’s what all of you seem to keep overlooking in Chris’ posts to you. Yes, I have religious belief’s. Understand, I respect those of you who have stated that you do not have those, but I ask you respect me for having them, as I respect your for your views. I am and my entire family are...Catholic. I believe in my faith, and I believe in who and what it makes me. In my faith, the body is buried in consecrated ground. Blessed ground. Do I want to put them in consecrated ground? Yes. But most importantly, I want to put them to rest as their family expected them to be. Their soul’s perhaps are not there as you all put it. Okay, I believe that as well, but for the family members that went before me and wanted to help and couldn’t, why can’t I? What is so wrong with me wanting to make it right when such a horrible wrong was done? What is wrong with me wanting to bury these boys so that myself and my family, know they are finally where the family meant them to be? What is so wrong with asking the University to release the remains that they have held for almost 100 years, knowing they were stolen from the family? I am sure the University has other teaching tools now, don’t you think? I mean if Smith stole these bodies, doesn’t it stand to reason he took others?
As I respect all your opinions, I ask that you please try to understand my point of view. As a family, we all had religious beliefs, and more importantly, we all believed in allowing our loved ones to be put to rest. In this case, they deserve to be finally allowed to be buried, buried as the family wanted them buried at the time of their death.
Truthfully, I don’t think the University will release them to me. I do not have a legal right, I may have a moral right, but nothing legal. I want to reiterate to all of you here, that I do respect your thoughts and opinions. I do appreciate your ideas on this matter, all I ask of you is that you keep an open mind as to why I’m doing this. Try to understand my point of view as well. I’m not doing this to have my name in the paper. Honestly, it was between Chris and I and he was kind enough to ask me if he could right the article. Without Chris and his support of my thoughts and my feelings, I don’t think I would have gone this far to be honest. He’s a dear and decent man and a good friend to me.
I guess I’ve said enough because it’s difficult for me to put it all into words, and it’s difficult for me to get it all out. My feelings are truly all over the place anymore. But one thing is for sure, these little boys still make me cry. I still wonder what their potential would have been, I still wonder how they would have faired if my Great Grandfather had been able to bring them to the U.S. Because the bottom line in all of this is they were babies, whose lives were taken way too soon, whether we agree or not.
Thank you all for your opinions, and your thoughts. I certainly am taking some of your answers to heart, whether good or bad in my eyes. And I respect all of you for them.
Sincerely,
Maureen E. Marella
My Johnston family has endured sorrow in many shapes and forms. We’ve had numerous tragedy, the boys being just one instant. We’ve had another brutal murder, a child that was swept off the side of the ship when coming to America, 13 of our children died in epidemics of diphtheria and one child burned to death as he jumped over a bon fire on Christmas. We’ve had our fair share of pain and sorrow. When I first found out about the boys, I cried and I told Chris I was angry that my family didn’t do anything to help them. Until recently I believed that, but have since found out differently. My great grandfather John Campbell Johnston was going back to Scotland to retrieve them and bring them to the U.S. when word came of their disappearance and subsequently of their murder. John was also told by someone in Scotland to leave well enough alone when he wanted to bring them alive to the U.S. and it is believed that the person that told him was Higgins. Of course we can’t be sure of that now.
But rather than go into my family history, I want to make a few things clear here. I do not have a problem with someone donating (operative word here is donating) their bodies to science. Nor do I believe that the medical and scientific world doesn’t need these type of specimens, they do. Many of you wonder where the boys are buried or what the family thought was buried. I have found out again from my family that my family pooled their money together to bury them in Scotland (I know where and I will tell Chris, but quite honestly it’s no one’s business but mine). They were buried, and not in pauper’s graves, although there are no stones to mark their places. What bothers me here, and what has been the reason for my wanting to do this is two fold. One - Smith admitted his quilt. He admitted that he “stole” these boys. He knew he did wrong, because he knew that there was a family to bury them. He admitted his guilt in his own writings and he admitted to his assistant that he did it, and his assistant was shocked at what he did. But that doesn’t seem to matter one hill of beans now does it?
Secondly - here’s what all of you seem to keep overlooking in Chris’ posts to you. Yes, I have religious belief’s. Understand, I respect those of you who have stated that you do not have those, but I ask you respect me for having them, as I respect your for your views. I am and my entire family are...Catholic. I believe in my faith, and I believe in who and what it makes me. In my faith, the body is buried in consecrated ground. Blessed ground. Do I want to put them in consecrated ground? Yes. But most importantly, I want to put them to rest as their family expected them to be. Their soul’s perhaps are not there as you all put it. Okay, I believe that as well, but for the family members that went before me and wanted to help and couldn’t, why can’t I? What is so wrong with me wanting to make it right when such a horrible wrong was done? What is wrong with me wanting to bury these boys so that myself and my family, know they are finally where the family meant them to be? What is so wrong with asking the University to release the remains that they have held for almost 100 years, knowing they were stolen from the family? I am sure the University has other teaching tools now, don’t you think? I mean if Smith stole these bodies, doesn’t it stand to reason he took others?
As I respect all your opinions, I ask that you please try to understand my point of view. As a family, we all had religious beliefs, and more importantly, we all believed in allowing our loved ones to be put to rest. In this case, they deserve to be finally allowed to be buried, buried as the family wanted them buried at the time of their death.
Truthfully, I don’t think the University will release them to me. I do not have a legal right, I may have a moral right, but nothing legal. I want to reiterate to all of you here, that I do respect your thoughts and opinions. I do appreciate your ideas on this matter, all I ask of you is that you keep an open mind as to why I’m doing this. Try to understand my point of view as well. I’m not doing this to have my name in the paper. Honestly, it was between Chris and I and he was kind enough to ask me if he could right the article. Without Chris and his support of my thoughts and my feelings, I don’t think I would have gone this far to be honest. He’s a dear and decent man and a good friend to me.
I guess I’ve said enough because it’s difficult for me to put it all into words, and it’s difficult for me to get it all out. My feelings are truly all over the place anymore. But one thing is for sure, these little boys still make me cry. I still wonder what their potential would have been, I still wonder how they would have faired if my Great Grandfather had been able to bring them to the U.S. Because the bottom line in all of this is they were babies, whose lives were taken way too soon, whether we agree or not.
Thank you all for your opinions, and your thoughts. I certainly am taking some of your answers to heart, whether good or bad in my eyes. And I respect all of you for them.
Sincerely,
Maureen E. Marella
Maureen E. Marella