Scott ancestors

[sheilajim]

Hi Elaine

Just a thought. Wouldn't it be cheaper and a lot quicker to get your Birth Certs or Death Certs for that matter, on Scotlands People's online site, instead of ordering them?

Regards

[AnneM]

Hi Sheila

Most of Elaine's people are in England at that stage so it's the ordering lottery for her, alas!

Anne

[sheilajim]

Hi Anne

Are you saying that they don't have anything like SP in England? I know that they don't have anything like it in Ireland, but thought that they had something like it in England.
If that is so, I am very grateful to have SP to look up my Scottish ancestors.

What about the FindMyPast site?

[elaine w]

Hi everyone,

Just thought I would let you know that my English forum have come to the conclusion that Catherine never married and James was illigitimate. But I'm not convinced. James (letter carrier) could have died anywhere in England that's probably why we can't find any death record and same for James Snr he was a seaman so could have died anywhere, perhaps at sea??

Has anyone any thoughts on the Catherine and James puzzle? I'm still confused over Bridget Scott married James Scott Snr (seaman) why is there no records of Bridget anywhere?? Did she change her name and become Catherine Scott??

I would appreciate your thoughts/opinions please - anyone??

Thanks

Elaine

[AnneM]

Hi Elaine

I'm sorry. I seemed to get the wrong end of the stick with your query from the start and did not know how much background info you had.

However if you will forgive me for going off on a tangent I will tell you what I think.

Firstly, I think that you have no reason to doubt the truth of the parentage for James, the letter carrier, given on his marriage certificate. This says that his parents were James Scott, Seaman and Bridget whose maiden name seems as you say to be Maidson (or something very similar). It says that they are both deceased,which is again perfectly likely.

The first time young James appears he is 8 years old in 1851 and already living in Montrose with Robert and Elizabeth. Throughout all the censuses on which he appears he is clearly stated to be born in Ireland so again this is probably the case. With the family also at this stage are Catherine Scott who is the daughter of Robert and Elizabeth and William Towns who is given as a lodger. The difficulty is that the image for this census entry is not available, which suggests that it is of poor quality and difficult to read. James is noted as a son but it seems to me likely that he is a grandson. For that reason the only available information is that which is transcribed on Ancestry which is not always of the most reliable.

One strange thing is that Catherine and William are already married at this point. They marry in 1847 in Montrose but they are not shown as married to each other on the census. It is worth bearing in mind that Scottish women are entitled to keep their maiden name and in the C18 to C19 often did so that may account for Catherine being shown as Catherine Scott.

Another confusing thing is that in 1861 Catherine is still with Elizabeth, who is widowed by this time and again appears as Catherine Scott but it does clearly say that she is married. William appears to be home in Brechin with his mum and dad who are George and Elizabeth, a temporary estrangement?/lack of work for a blacksmith in Montrose?/the need for Catherine to look after Elizabeth? who knows.

By 1971 William and Catherine are back together in Montrose at which point she appears as Catherine Towns. (Or actually they appear on Ancestry as Tonne). By 1881 Catherine is again Catherine Towns in Montrose and is a widow. William's death is there somewhere between 1871 and 1881 in Montrose but because I'm trying not to buy credits on SP, I have not looked at it. If I were you I would however just to see if there are any clues at all.

Catherine dies in 1887 given as aged 69 which would make her born in 1818 which seems a bit early. However it is clearly her as it states that she is the widow of William Towns Blacksmith and gives her parents as Robert Scott, vintner and Elizabeth Duncan. A neighbour is the informant for her death so the age may not be that accurate. Having said that it fits not too badly with her age on the 1841 census when she was possibly not telling porkies.

I really doubt that Catherine is the mother of young James the letter carrier. There is to my eyes nothing to suggest that she is. The relationships in the 1851 census entry appear to be all over the shop and James is shown in 1861 to be the son of Elizabeth which again he clearly cannot be, given the age difference.

Elizabeth and Robert did indeed have a son James who was born or baptised in 18th March 1812. Again if I were you I would look at the original entry to see if there is any further information by any chance. I don't see him on the 1851 census in Scotland. There is nothing to suggest that he is not the father of young James the letter carrier.

I notice that the Family Search site produces Maddison and Madison for Maidson so mother's name might have been Bridget Madison or similar. It is quite likely that Bridget was born in England or Ireland as it states that James was a sailor and therefore could have travelled anywhere. It is reasonably likely that she was born in Ireland as that's where young James was born. (Another reason for the unlikeliness of Catherine being his mother is that she never seems to stir from Montrose.)

It seems to me that the likeliest explanation is that something happened to either James and Bridget or Bridget herself and that therefore little James was brought up by his grandmother Elizabeth, not an unusual situation. Whether or not James and Bridget were ever married who can tell. There is no evidence that they were not, or that Bridget was not genuinely young James's mother. I can't see a marriage for them on the Family Search site but that means nothing. They don't seem to have been married in Scotland as far as I can see.

Where Robert and Elizabeth are concerned, I can't find a birth for either on SP, which could mean that they were not baptised, that they belonged to a church other than the Church of Scotland, of which there were a few even before the 1840s or that the records were not kept or were destroyed. It is not inexperience that you cannot find them.

Robert seems to have died before 1855 as I can't find a death for him (though someone else may.) Elizabeth however dies in the 1860s and her death is on Scotland's People and this certificate should give you her parents' names. That would be my next call if I were you.

It is possible that Robert may have more detail on his gravestone so it may be worth asking Angus Council if they have details of where he is buried. It is likely that he died between 1851 and 1855 and there may be a record of memorial inscriptions around that time.

The other thing I would check on if you have not already done so is to read the original record of the banns of Robert and Elizabeth just to check that there is no more detail... unlikely admittedly.

You've got really far in a short time and Elizabeth's parents should be available to you so you may get further back soon. Good luck.

Anne

BTW I noticed it said Sunderland for the later censuses for young John but I wondered why the 1871 just said England. It seemed to me just possible that he was born somewhere else and that this was forgotten in the intervening 10 years. It might have accounted for the fact that you had trouble finding his birth. It was another reason for looking for the death of James in case he was born in the same place as James died.

[elaine w]

Hi Anne,

Wow! Thanks for your opinion and help. You have given me food for thought!!

I must admit I have had loads of help from people on the english forum and that is why I have got this far so quickly but things were beginning to come to a stalemate situation.

I stumbled across a census showing Christina, James and John, by accident in the very early days of me searching. Something drew me to it and I kept it in my file. I don't really know why but then I went off in a different route - obviously the wrong one and ended up coming back to Christina. One of the members thought I was correct in the first place when I mentioned I had found Christina and that I should dig deeper. Very strange, I just had a 'feeling' but at that time I didn't know why. Think I will go by my instincts in future. Anyway, my instinct is I (like you) am now convinced Catherine is NOT James's mother.

I will dig deeper and check out the things you have advised. Do you suggest I look at anything in particular when I go to my Family Records Centre? I'm going to search Montrose parish records and seamens crewlists. Anything else I should check while I'm there??

Thanks again, you have been brilliant.
Best wishes
Elaine.

[AnneM]

Elaine

Found your English forum and I think a lot of what they have said makes sense. I would be happier once I'd found the birth of John Scott in England but I know that is not easy. Take it in little bits.

Crew lists may shed some light. I found my 2 x great grandfather in the records in the National Archives in London.

If James senior died before 1855 there may be no record of his death anywhere.

Anne

[AnneM]

Hi Elaine

Just a bit of advice which please feel free to ignore!! If I were you I would sit down and write out methodically what you know so far and what evidence you have for each bit of information (if you've not already done so). Then you can make a note of what you need to know next and that should point you in the direction of what records you need to look at next and also will clear your mind.

You've acquired a lot of information very quickly and that can be confusing. I know that sort of information overload quickly confuses me.

Of course you may feel that you are completely clear in your mind so far in which just ignore this poor dottled Scot.

Anne

[elaine w]

Hi Anne,

Thanks for your advice I will write everything down. I think I need to because it has been overwhelming all this info all at once. If you think you are a dottled Scot well I don't know what I am then!!
When I was at school I hated having the surname Scott as everyone called me Scottie dog. And now I am finding it quite exciting and interesting knowing I have Scottish blood running through my veins!!

I will let you know what I find either on Scotlands People or at the Family History Centre.

BTW I tried yesterday to search for Elizabeth Scott's death record and when I came to view, it gave the wrong image I had to report it to the technical department and they should get back to me within 24hours. I'm now nearly out of credits but I'm wondering if they will reimburse me.

Anyway, enough of all that. Thanks again for your help. Contact you again soon.
Regards,
Elaine.

[elaine w]

Hi Anne,

Well I have been sat here hours searching and searching, my hubby thinks I've abandoned him!

I've got the parents of Elizabeth Duncan - they are John Duncan occ miller, and Helen Duncan (nee Sherif, I think, again hard to read). I've tried searching for a death or anything for Robert Scott but absolutely nothing. I got the death cert for William Towns but doesn't say anything I don't already know.

I'm calling it a night as had enough!

Might ring Angus council tomorrow as a last ditch attempt to track down Rob Scott. These Scott men are sooooooo difficult

Regards
Elaine.