KENNET(H) Dundonald area abt 1750's.....

[Peter Cowley]

Dear Alan and Raymond,

Hello Raymond & Peter,

I thought it might be useful to give you both my take on your findings as they were posted. My responses are in <>.

According to The Plantagenet Roll http://books.google.com.au/books?id=0aU ... 22&f=false Frederick Charles Bentinck Bagshaw, of Boulton’s Mounted Infantry (Victoria, British Columbia), b. Mar. 1867; m. 29 June 1888, Frances Ann da. of Lieut-Col. Robert Crawfurd, Rifle Brigade; and has issue (3 sons and 7 das.).

<This is generally correct. My great grandfather's name was Edward Charles Bentinck Bagshawe (named for a Bentinck related to his mother, Emma Hoare). I have him born on Mar. 15, 1866, Married as noted in 1888, and died May 18, 1936. Frances Ann, my great-grandmother, was indeed, one of Lieut-Col. Robert Crawfurd's two daughters--I am only now aware of another as yet unnamed sister). The two brothers were Robert and Galfridus. I would put Frances Ann's birth in the March quarter of 1865. So, Alan, this is pretty certainly the family you reported on in your post of Nov.5. We just need to find the fourth child somewher.>

Presumably Frances Ann Crawfurd would have been about the same age as her husband, i.e. born about 1867. On the 1881 Census, Bolton Hall, Preston Under Soar, York, England, there’s the following household
William H. O. Powlett BOLTON Head M Male 63 Marylebone, Middlesex, England Baron In The Peerage Of Gt Britain Farmer Of 3400 Acres Employing 58 Men 23 Boys
Letitia BOLTON Wife M Female 57 Ayrshire, Scotland Baroness
Amias Lucien O.Powlett BOLTON Son U Male 25 Wensley, York, England Bachelor Of Arts
Frances A. CRAWFORD Cousin Female 16 Newcastle On Tyne, Northumberland, England

<This Frances is again my grandmother living with her aunt Letitia (nee Crawfurd), Lady Bolton. These two are first cousins, Lady Bolton being one of the children of the marriage of Letitia O'Brien to Lord Bolton's father while Letitia Crawfurd was a child of Robert Crawfurd (d. 1843) and Letitia O'Brien's sister Frances. Letitia was the eligitimate daughter of Frances and Letitia's father, Henry O'Brien of Blatherwycke....but I digress.>

due to PLUS 23 Servants


Is this Frances A Crawford b. 1865, Newcastle, the daughter of Robert (2) who married Bagshaw. She certainly isn’t the cousin of Lord or Lady Bolton, but could be of the Son, who no doubt got the job of supplying the census information. Don’t worry about the spelling. The 1881 ‘British’ Census transcriptions can be accessed free here, but Scotland isn’t included. http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/ ... census.asp

<Yes this is Frances A., my great-grandma--it all makes sense.>

If that’s her then it’s a pointer to the marriage and three births I listed in my previous post.

<I am satisfied that all this is correct. Although we still need to find Robert (2)'s second daughter, Francis A's apparent sister.>

Here’s the 1841 Census transcription on FreeCen. http://freecen.rootsweb.com/ (In 1841 relationships weren’t shown and adult ages were usually rounded down to nearest 5 and the age of 42 for Frances may be suspect, rounded down to 45?)

1841 Census
Piece: SCT1841/590 Place: Dundonald -Ayrshire Enumeration District: 2
Civil Parish: Dundonald Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Dundonald
Folio: 2 Page: 28
Address: Newfield
CRAWFORD Frances F 42 England
CRAWFORD Fanny F 20 Ayrshire
CRAWFORD Emma F 18 Ayrshire
CRAWFORD Julia F 16 Ayrshire
CRAWFORD Letitia F 14 Ayrshire
CRAWFORD Reginald M 9 Ayrshire
PLUS 11 Servants

<With some odd bits, this appears to be the family of Robert (1), died 1843. Frances F (although I haven't previously seen the F, should be Frances O'Brien his wife. Fanny is probably their daughter Frances who came to Canada with Frances A. and her husband, ECB Bagshawe. Reginald is actually "Patrick Reginald" and the heir Robert (2) is missing but he may already have left home.>

You’ll probably have to track this family using census returns and I suspect you’ll find most of them south of the border in England from about 1851. English census returns are available online from various places but the 1911 census is only available at FindMyPast. You may have some problems with the Crawfurd/Crawford thing.

You can apply for English BDM certificates here https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/cert ... efault.asp
English certificates are much more expensive and much less informative than the Scottish variety. You can get the registration number from the FreeBMD site but make sure you check the image so you know the transcription is correct. See also http://www.thosedixons.net/certificates/indexbmd.html

Robin Hoods uniform. My first thought was ‘Lincoln Green’ but I think Dark Green was the norm for Rifle Regiments.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mando_gal/4074140310/

There’s a picture of them on parade towards the end of this document.
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cac ... cZ3Vx0rShg

All the best,
Alan

LATER: The parade ground picture may be better here http://communications.nottingham.ac.uk/ ... 0expdf.pdf

Alan
Currie

Posts: 2308
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:20 am
Location: Australia

[Peter Cowley]

Dear Raymond and Alan,

Here are my comments on your second post of the day, again in <>.


Re: KENNET(H) Dundonald area abt 1750's.....
by Currie » Mon Nov 08, 2010 9:18 am
Back again,

This looks like Francis (Frances) living in Twickenham in 1881 with Robert’s (2) two sons and a niece (?) born Scotland.
Dwelling Mortimer Villa Strawberry Hill Rd
Census Place Twickenham, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341326
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 1343 / 17
Page Number 27
Francis CRAWFORD Head U Female 66 Scotland None
Robert CRAWFORD Nephew U Male 17 Northumberland, England Clerk at Bank
Galfrittus CRAWFORD Nephew U Male 13 London, London, Middlesex, England Scholar
Mary V. CRAWFORD Niece Female 7 Scotland
PLUS 2 Servants

<OK so this is the "Fanny" that appeared in your first post. On the back of one of her watercolours that I own, someone has written "Aunt Fanny" beside the name "Frances Crawfurd". Fanny is the one who finally came to Canada in the late 1890's with Frances A. and ECB Bagshawe, with their kids Noel, Vivian, and my Grannie Sybil (born 1890) as well as a wet nurse, in tow. So Frances A. isn't here which is odd since she didn't marry until 1888.

It would be most interesting if it turns out that Mary V. Crawford was the second daughter of Robert (2) for whom I have been looking. I cannot be certain because Patrick Reginald (Robert (2)'s brother) may have had children and this may be one of them. I'll try to see where Mary V. fits in.>

The York Herald (York, England), Saturday, February 13, 1858
A list of shareholders in York Union Banking Company includes a Julia Crawfurd, Rothsay, spinster.

THE WALKERS:

The Morning Post (London), Wednesday, August 16, 1843
On the 13th inst., at Eastwood Hall, Nottinghamshire, the Lady of George Walker, Esq., of a daughter.

March 13, 1851.
Death of George Walker, age 45.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=-ME ... 22&f=false

May 27, 1865.
Marriage of only daughter, Emma Georgiana, to Henry W. Langley. (middle name is William)
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=SU9 ... 22&f=false

Nottinghamshire Guardian (London), Friday, November 24, 1865
Death of Mrs Walker of Eastwood Hall –We regret to have the painful duty of recording the death of Mrs Walker, of Eastwood Hall, Notts. The melancholy event took place on Sunday at the residence of the deceased, and the cause of death, we understand, was disease of the heart. Mrs Walker was the widow of the late George Walker, Esq., and daughter of the late Colonel Crawfurd, Newfield, Ayrshire. The deceased lady was only in her forty-seventh year.

Alan

[Peter Cowley]

Dear Raymond and Alan

I have found another and more likely marriage for Robert (2) she is an Ann and the marriage was a few years earlier than the birth of Robert (2)'s first child and heir Robert (3).

Introducing my candidate for Mrs. Robert Crawfurd, one of my last missing great-, great-, grandmas:

ANN SETTERFIELD!

Marriages Mar 1858 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CRAWFURD Robert Bridge 2a 557
GARROW Georgina Letitia Bridge 2a 557
GARROW Georgina Loetitia Bridge 2a 557
Setterfield Ann Bridge 2a 557

Bridge district is in the general area of a lot of Crawfurd Bagshawe business. Indeed my granny Sybil's birth was registered in Kingston district and perhaps they are close by.

So, what is left is to find Robert 2's second daughter (if in fact there is one) and to get more comfortable with a Setterfield in the family.

Regarding Galfridus (son of Robert 2), my dear daughter found the Crawfurd contact she visited a decade ago in England. She is Galfridus' grandaughter. She will be quite old now--the earliest she could have been born was about 1920--so we must keep our fingers crossed.

This is all wonderful stuff. Thanks to you both.

Best regards,

Peter

[Currie]

Hello Peter and Raymond,

By 1881 the family of Robert (2) and his wife have split up. Daughter Frances A. born 1865 is living with her aunt Letitia Bolton in York, sons Robert and Galfridus and the mysterious Mary V are living with their aunt Fanny (Frances) in Twickenham. It looks like their father may have died in 1876, age 60, in Brentford district. Maybe the mother was also deceased by then?

According to the 1881 census Mary V Crawford was born in Scotland c.1874. Scottish births up to 1874 are on the IGI. I can’t see that one jumping out at me there or at SP.

According to this page the Robert Crawfurd marriage in 1858 was to Georgina Loetitia (or Letitia) Garrow. He was born 1801 and died 1883 in Pancras. He was from the family of Crawfurds with Payne in the name that I seem to be stumbling across quite often. If that is correct then the registration numbers for Ann Setterfield and her spouse have probably been transcribed differently and she’s therefore sitting in the FreeBMD index all by herself.
http://wc.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin ... e&id=I6095

That looks to be right. Georgina’s death is in the The Times, Monday, May 28, 1888
DEATHS:
On the 23d May, at Windsor, GEORGINA LOETITIA, widow of R. CRAWFURD, Esq., formerly of Saint Hill, Sussex, third daughter of the late Rev. D. Garrow, Rector of E. Barnet, Herts, and granddaughter of Sir W. Garrow, formerly a Baron of the Exchequer."

On the 29th it adds that she died in her 78th year and has the husband‘s full name as Robert Crawfurd. I think you can probably forget about Ann Setterfield.

Tha birth certificates of the children of Robert (2) should have enough information to identify the mother and if she survived to 1871 she should appear on the census or if not Robert should be there as a widower.


Here are some post 1900 ingredients for the stew, assembled from freely available info at FMP.

1901 Census.
Name, Age, Where born, Administrative county, Civil parish, Occupation
Galfridus R J Crawford, 33, London Pancras, Middlesex, Hampton Wick, Bank Clerk
There’s only two other Crawfords in Hampton Wick.
Louisa E Crawford, 35, London Hanover Sq ,Middlesex, Hampton Wick
Galfridus M C Crawford, 1, Middx Hampton Wick, Middlesex, Hampton Wick

1911 Census.
Last names, First names, Sex, Birth year, Age in 1911, District, County
CRAWFORD, GALFRIDUS R I, M, 1868, 43, Kingston, Surrey
Other Crawfords in the household
CRAWFORD, LOUISE, F, 1866, 45, Kingston, Surrey
CRAWFORD, VILET LOUISE, F, 1904, 7, Kingston, Surrey

If you look at FreeBMD you’ll see that Galfridus married Louise Eliza Carrington and Malcolm married Ethel C Ingram. If you put Crawford or Crawfurd in the surname box and Carrington in the mother’s surname box you’ll find there were no post 1911 births. (mother’s maiden names only appear in the index from 1911) Do the same with Crawfurd and Ingram and you’ll find a birth but I suspect the father may be a Charles and another Lt. Col. Note that this index is incomplete and has many gaps in the 1930s.

1901 Census.
Name, Age, Where born, Administrative county, Civil parish, Occupation
Robert Crawford, 37, Northumberland ..., Middlesex, Hampton, Clerk to Banker
Other Crawfords in Hampton
Georgina Crawford, 37, Hampton Wick Middx, Middlesex, Hampton
Winfred Fanny Crawford, 8, Teddington Middx, Middlesex, Hampton, Juvenile
Robert Crawford, 7, Teddington, Middlesex, Hampton, Juvenile
Archibald Crawford, 5, Teddington, Middlesex, Hampton, Juvenile
Margorie Crawford, 1, Teddington, Middlesex, Hampton, Juvenile

1911 Census.
Last names, First names, Sex, Birth year, Age in 1911, District, County
CRAWFORD, ROBERT, M, 1864, 47, Kingston, Surrey
Other Crawfords in the household
CRAWFORD, GEORGINA, F, 1863, 48, Kingston, Surrey
CRAWFORD, WINIFRED, F, 1893, 18, Kingston, Surrey
CRAWFORD, ROBERT, M, 1894, 17, Kingston, Surrey
CRAWFORD, ARCHIBALD, M, 1896, 15, Kingston, Surrey
CRAWFORD, MARJORIE, F, 1900, 11, Kingston, Surrey
CRAWFORD, JEAN, F, 1902, 9, Kingston, Surrey

Robert’s looks likely to be the 1891 marriage to Georgina Gilkes.

Hope that helps,
Alan

[Raymond Crawfurd]

Dear Alan & Peter,
Just to say that I have ordered a copy of Galfridus's birth certificate which should give the name of his mother, the wife of Robert [2]. Raymond

[Raymond Crawfurd]

Dear Alan and Peter,
You can forget the Robert Crawfurd and Georgina Letitia Garrow who were married at Bridge - they are my ancestors! We also spell our name with a "u". They are the Crawfurds, formerly of Ardmillan and latterly of Saint Hill, East Grinstead in Sussex, but unconnected with the Crawfurds of Newfield. if you are interested there is a TV series called "Garrow's Law" starting next Sunday which is about Georgina's grandfather, who became Lord Chief Justice.
On another topic, I looked up the Posting of Robert [2] as commander of the Italian Legion. A curious outfit! It was actually called the British Italian Legion and was raised in 1855 at the start of the Crimean War. It spent the whole of its existence, which was short, in Malta (why?) and saw no active service. Not exactly a opst covered in glory. I am also slightly bothered that he seems to have been demoted between his leaving the Rifle Brigade as Major and joining the 66th as Captain. Raymond

[Peter Cowley]

Good morning from Peter (just about to leave for the office) in Vancouver

<<Too bad about Ann as a potential wife for Robert (2)!>>

From Alan,

"Here are some post 1900 ingredients for the stew, assembled from freely available info at FMP.

1901 Census.
Name, Age, Where born, Administrative county, Civil parish, Occupation
Galfridus R J Crawford, 33, London Pancras, Middlesex, Hampton Wick, Bank Clerk
There’s only two other Crawfords in Hampton Wick.
Louisa E Crawford, 35, London Hanover Sq ,Middlesex, Hampton Wick
Galfridus M C Crawford, 1, Middx Hampton Wick, Middlesex, Hampton Wick....."

<<So, it seems we have a wife for Galfridus anyway.

This is a good step forward. I have the son's name (Galridus Malcolm) on the authority of his daughter. Perhaps Raymond, if you are in the same time zone you could see if you are able to track down Galfridous Malcolm's daughter--the mystery lady my daughter Jessica visited)--or a descendant. By my reckoning she is probably dead, but you never know. I found her name on an electors list for 2006 so..maybe.[ name, address, postal code and telphone number removed. ] Good luck should you decide to take on this mission. >>

Cheers,

Peter

[Please do not post details of possibly living or possibly recently deceased persons - you can use the PM system for this. LesleyB, TS Admin]

[donmontag]

Hmm : Colonel Crawfurd of Newfield . . . more than one of them!
See the new Oxford Dictionary of National Biography which records:
"Hill, Alexander (1785-1867), Church of Scotland minister and theologian, was born at St Andrews, Fife, on 19 July 1785, the son of George Hill (1750-1819), principal of St Mary's College, and his wife, Harriet Scott. He studied at the university of his native city, and graduated in September 1804. He was licensed as a preacher in 1806; for nine years afterwards he travelled in England and abroad, acting as tutor to a relative and pursuing his own studies, especially in the classics. In 1815 he was ordained as minister of Colmonell in Ayrshire; in June 1816 he was translated to the neighbouring parish of Dailly, where he remained for twenty-five years. He graduated DD at St Andrews in 1828. He married Margaret (d. 1874), only daughter of Major Crawford HEICS of Newfield; they had nine children."
He actually married Margaret on 18 & 22/4/1817, according to a couple of IGI extracted records. Note the DNB says "...only daughter..." and that this Col Crawfurd served in the HEICS.

A lovely family relic entitled "A Book of Remembrance" published in 1913 confirms that Margaret, daughter of Colonel Crawfurd of Newfield married Alexander Hill (who was one of my 3G Great Uncles)

So 'my' Colonel Crawfurd must have been an ancestor of the one whose descendants you are discussing, but so far I've failed to discover how. Any ideas?

Don Montague

[donmontag]

Ah-ha!
Just found:
"A genealogical and heraldic history of the commoners of Great Britain and Ireland enjoying territorial possessions or high official rank: but uninvested with heritable honours" by John Burke (1836) via Google books, which records that :
"Robert Crawfurd, esq, born in 1707 . . . espoused Marion Brison ...had issue
Robert, died young
Moses
Archibald, born in 1746. who died in In dia
Patric, born in 1748, also died in India
George, died young
Janet
Agnes
Jean
Elizabeth, married to R. Thompson Esq. pof Dolgerrack
Mr Crawfurd died in 1772 and was succeeded by his eldest surviving son, MOSES CRAWFURD, who went to India about the year 1765 and there attained the rank of Major in the company's service. . . . . . Returning home in 1783 he purchased the estate of Newfield, and wedded . . . . Margaret. eldest daughter of the late John M'Kerrell, of Hillhouse, by whom he had issue,
Robert, his heir
John, Major, 6th Foot, who serving during the Peninsular War, was present at the battles of Salamanca and Orthes, and wounded and taken prisoner in the latter engagement.
Archibald, Major of Artillery in the East India Company's Service, who m. Octavia, daughter of the late Colonel James Phelp..... and has a son, Archibald.
Patrick, M.D., who died in India.
Margaret, m. to the Rev. Dr. Alexander Hill (ah-ha!)

Major Crawfurd died in 1794 and was succeeded by his eldest son, Robert Crawfurd, esq. of Newfield. etc......"
[no details of his descendants quoted]

Does this help?

Don

[Peter Cowley]

Hi Don,

Thanks for your post.

Major Crawfurd died in 1794 and was succeeded by his eldest son, Robert Crawfurd, esq. of Newfield. etc......[no details of his descendants quoted]

Now, it's with the "details of his descendents" that Alan, Raymond, and I are concerned for the time being. The Robert Crawfurd in your quote above is the man I have referred to in my discussion with Alan and Raymond as Robert (1). He is one of my great, great, great grandfathers. His heir, my Robert (2) is, I think, the Robert that Alan found commanding the Robin Hood Rifles. His heir, my Robert (3), was great, great uncle. We are stilling looking for confirmation of Robert (2)'s wife, his fourth child (we know about Robert (3), Frances Ann, and Galfridus Reginald, but my information tells suggests a second daughter). Finally we are looking for more info on Galfridus Reginald's son, Galfridus Malcolm, particularly any children he may have had.

This uncertainty remaining around Robert (2) and Galfridus Malcolm represents a pretty important gap in my the map of my more recent ancestors, so I am happy for whatever help I can get in tidying up the loose ends.

Cheers,

Peter Cowley
Vancouver, Canada