Missing GG-Granny!

KellyO · Post by **KellyO** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:23 pm

Hello there. I have followed the forums for a wee while now and enjoy reading about the conundrums and puzzles our ancestors have left us!! I have one or two conundrums of my own, which have plagued me for ages and I would love a wee bit of advice or help on how to try and solve them.

My G-Grandfather was Thomas LAING and I have his birth certificate from 14/1/1883 in Edinburgh. His parents are shown as John LAING, Cabman, and an Emma GRAHAME. John and Emma’s marriage date is shown on the cert as 20/6/1882 in Glasgow.

I have been unable to trace the marriage of John and Emma, despite having a date. I have tried wild cards and different spellings for LAING and GRAHAME. Is it possible they had an irregular marriage that wasn’t officially registered? John did remarry on 31/12/1890 and declared himself as a bachelor on that cert and not a widow, so I haven’t a clue if Emma died (can’t trace a death for her), or if it was some kind of unofficial marriage or a divorce.

I have also tried scouring the 1881 to 1901 census’s for Emma and only found one remote possibility for her in 1881.

Dwelling: 66 Mc Neil Street
Census Place: Govan, Lanark, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203671 GRO Ref Volume 644-11 EnumDist 50 Page 15
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Thomas MC KAY W 83 M Edinburgh, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Butler Formerly
Isabella LAWSON U 25 F Gourock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Grand Neice
Occ: Black Borderer
Emma GRAHAM U 20 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Grand Neice
Occ: Machinist

It may be that I can’t see the wood for the trees and someone will instantly find her!! Then again, if she is a bit of a mystery, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Many thanks in anticipation

Kelly

Post by **emanday** » Fri Feb 01, 2008 11:36 pm

Hi KellyO,

Good to have you join us.

If they married in 1882 then, under the law in place for marriages after 1855, the MC is there somewhere, but you have to consider...

(a) the possiblility that no marriage ever actually took place.
(b) Emma Grahame was previously married and Grahame wasn't her maiden name

However, I'm sure others will be along with other suggestions.

ninatoo · Post by **ninatoo** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 6:15 am

Hane you tried searching for the names without a date or place? I found a couple of mine that way, and the marriage date I had (from a child's birth registration) was incorrect.

Nina

KellyO · Post by **KellyO** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:18 am

Hi Mary and Nina and thanks for your replies.

Mary, yes I have started to consider it maybe a made up marriage date. John LAING seems to have fibbed about his age at various times, by about 15 years in some instances, so why not tell a porkie about being married!!! I never considered that Emma may have been married before, something to ponder.

Nina, I too have had other relatives who got their marriage dates wrong and have found them a year or so out on SP, but thanks for the suggestion.

Oh if only they knew a hundred years ago the fun we would be having now trying to find them all!!

Post by **SarahND** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:19 am

Hi Kelly,
Welcome to Talking Scot!
Is Thomas living with his father in 1891? Or with some other relative? Just wondering if his name is Laing or Grahame at that stage. At least that would give us a hint whether or not his parents were ever married.

All the best,
Sarah

KellyO · Post by **KellyO** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:15 pm

Hiya Sarah!

I should have said that Thomas was with his father and his new wife in the 1891 census. His surname was listed as LAING. Thomas's marriage cert and death cert list his step-mother as his mother, so maybe Emma did die when he was young and he maybe never knew about her?

Thanks

Kelly

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:30 pm

KellyO wrote:Hiya Sarah!

I should have said that Thomas was with his father and his new wife in the 1891 census. His surname was listed as LAING. Thomas's marriage cert and death cert list his step-mother as his mother, so maybe Emma did die when he was young and he maybe never knew about her?

Thanks

Kelly

hello Kelly,

In 1891 there is a John Laing age 6 living with John senior and his wife. Have you checked his birth on SP? Is he John and/or Helen's son?

The Emma Graham you found in 1881 is still living in Glasgow (apparently unmarried) in 1891 and 1901.

Was there an occupation given for Emma on Thomas's birth entry?

Regards,
Annette

Post by **SarahND** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 10:24 am

nelmit wrote: The Emma Graham you found in 1881 is still living in Glasgow (apparently unmarried) in 1891 and 1901.

Was there an occupation given for Emma on Thomas's birth entry?

Hi Annette,
Are you thinking she is the one who was the daughter of James and Ann, who was 3 months old in 1861? By 1871 Ann is on her own with three children.

That Emma appears to have died in 1917 in Glasgow. It would indeed be interesting to know whether Emma was a (sewing) machinist on the birth record.

I hope it is the right Emma, since that 1881 record holds so many intriguing hints to her ancestry, with her living in the home of her 83 yr old grand uncle (a former butler), and a cousin-- all three with different surnames-- and none matching the surname of her mother Ann in the IGI birth record for Emma

Sounds like a nice puzzle for a rainy day

Unfortunately, the sun is out today and I have to finish pruning the vines...

All the best,
Sarah

KellyO · Post by **KellyO** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:34 am

Hi Annette,

Yes I have the young John Laing with the family in 1891 and tried for his birth cert. Without knowing who his parents were (could be a combination of John and Emma or John and Helen or Helen and someone else altogether!!), I went for John at least being the father option!

I spent a good few credits checking the possible entries and could only see one John born in Sept 1884, with a father called John, who had an occupation of Stableman. Interestingly enough John the elder had used that occuptation on his marriage cert to Helen BAILLIE. Anyhoo, this birth cert showed the child as being illegitimate and the mother an Emily Gordon.

I also tried for a Richard LAING, as he is also on the census aged 2. I couldn't find a birth for a Richard LAING at all to fit the bill.

Sarah, I have seen the Sewing Machinist Emma that you refer to, but couldn't pin anything down on it.

On Thomas's birth cert, Emma has signed the cert herself as Emma LAING. What puzzles me, is if she didn't die when Thomas was young, what possible reason could she have for letting Thomas stay with John?

I am starting to feel like John the elder was a man of mystery! Can't find his supposed first wife and as I said before, I have my suspicions he fibbed about his age and was a bit older than he said.

Anyway, all your help and thoughts on this puzzle are much appreciated.

Kelly

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Sun Feb 03, 2008 11:40 am

KellyO wrote:Hi Annette,

I spent a good few credits checking the possible entries and could only see one John born in Sept 1884, with a father called John, who had an occupation of Stableman. Interestingly enough John the elder had used that occuptation on his marriage cert to Helen BAILLIE. Anyhoo, this birth cert showed the child as being illegitimate and the mother an Emily Gordon.

Kelly

Hi Kelly,

Definitely on to something here with Emily Gordon.

I found something last night referring to her and somehow found a connection to Graham but can I remember what it was !!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm away to try and retrace my steps.

Annette