Trying To Find My Grandfathers Birth Details.

Paul Dale · Post by **Paul Dale** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:09 pm

Hi all,

I'm quite new to Genealogy as well as this site and am enjoying a very interesting learning curve but have now hit a bit of a brick wall and was wondering if anyone could advise a course of action/study. I had posted a similar post as this on an English site and received many helpfull tips and suggestions. However, I think the folk trying to help went down the wrong track in suggesting Hugh's mothers name in that Hugh's fathers name never tallied with what I already knew about him.

Basically, I know very little about my Fathers side of the family. He has now passed on but when I did enquire about his father when he was himself still alive the questions were always evaded. To be honest, I wasn't really too bothered as my step-grandfather was a very kind and decent man. It is only since they've all started to pass away that I've realised I've left things too late.

Anyhow, on to what I do know about him. I've only very recently found out that my Grandfathers name was Hugh Hay Dale. My father always told me he was half Scottish - but I don't know if this is true or not. What I do know is that my Grandfather died (in dubious circumstances) in an Ambulance in November 1945 - I have the death certificate (Leicester Q1 1946) in which it states he was 34 years of age. I also have a copy of his marriage certificate to my Grandmother, Kathleen Ivy Cufflin in Q1 of 1937 giving his age as 25. Importantly, it gives his fathers name (My Gt. Grandfather) on the certificate as James M Dale, "an Army Pensioner". Both of these stated ages for Hugh suggest he was born in 1911.

Searching through English birth records for around 1911 there is a Hugh Dale listed as born in Oldham. I sent off for the certificate but his father is given as a Hugh Dale.

I then joined Scotlands People to continue my search. I found details of a Hugh Dale - not Hugh Hay Dale note - but sent off for the cetificate anyhow. This came back recording his father to be also be called Hugh Dale.

I then tried a search using the 'Soundex' option. This has thrown up two possible Hugh Hay Dall's one born in 1911 and one 1910 and, thinking I'd cracked it, sent off for yet another certificate for the 1911 birth. This duly arrived and I was very disappointed to find that it wasn't a typo and the chap was indeed Hugh Hay Dall with a father once again of the same name.

I'm reluctant to send off the for the 1910 Dall certificate as I believe this was too early.

Anyone have any ideas how I might be able to pin down 'my' Hugh Hay Dale?

Many thanks if you've taken the time to read this epic.

Paul

Post by **SarahND** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:08 pm

Hi Paul,
Welcome to Talking Scot! [talkingscot]

Not sure if there is a connection, but there is a James Dale, army pensioner, in 1901 in Maryhill, Glasgow. His wife in that census looks too old to be Hugh's mother, but she could have died and he married again before 1911:

1901
323 Main St, Maryhill, Glasgow, Lanarkshire
James Dale, 56, Head, born England, Army Pensioner
Catherine Dale, 50, Wife, born England
John Anderson, 45, Brother of Wife, born Perth, Perthsh, Cabinet Maker

All the best,
Sarah

Another possibility is that he was illegitimate, and that his birth certificate would be under the name Hugh Hay (presumably the mother's surname) and that he only took his father's surname of Dale later. We have seen many such cases on Talking Scot.

Paul Dale · Post by **Paul Dale** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:16 pm

Hi Sarah,

Thanks for the welcome and the pointer. I had come across this one but dismissed it for the same reasons you give. I'm starting to think he might have been adopted or similar and changed his name at some point. Not easy this family tracing thing is it......?

Post by **SarahND** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:25 pm

Hi Paul,
I added a postscript to my last message as you were posting your reply...

Have you looked under "Hay"?

Cheers,
Sarah

Currie · Post by **Currie** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 1:11 pm

Hello Paul,

You’re in a difficult position because you don’t have much to go on and what you do have hasn’t produced much in the way of results so far.

If your great grandfather was a pensioner in respect of WW1 injuries and he had no previous military involvement then that fact wont help as an identifier of the c1911 birth.

But if your great grandfather was a WW1 pensioner then in theory his Army file should have survived the WW2 bombing and be on the Ancestry site and his medal card should be there as well. That’s easier said than done.

Seeing your grandfather was born c1911 he would have been of military age during WW2 and if he was a member of the forces maybe his Service file has something useful on it, although that would be something of a long shot.

The 1911 England/Wales census is due for release in 2009 and if you’re lucky and he was born there before it was taken, he may show up, otherwise it’s a 2 year wait for the Scottish one and a 12 year wait for the one after that.

All the best and good luck,
Alan

Paul Dale · Post by **Paul Dale** » Tue Dec 30, 2008 3:19 pm

Sarah - Thanks for the prompt. I've tried that now. It didn't throw up anything concrete but a possibility from 1910. I'll follow that up.

Alan - Thanks also for your good ideas. I think my Gt. Grandfathers military service might be the only means of research. We did try this on the B-G forum but, as you say, it's easier said than done.

I don't know a great deal about Hugh - but I think he was something of a bad Egg. I'm fairly sure from comments my Grandmother made about him that he served a prison sentence during the war rather than serve in it. His death certificate states that he died of head injuries and that an inquest and manslaughter charges followed. I think it was payback time from someone.....!

alex19canteen · Post by **alex19canteen** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:23 pm

Hi,

I did a search that gave this return:

2 1910 DALL HUGH HAY M KIRKCALDY AND ABBOTSHALL /FIFE 42/00 0293 No Image
3 1911 DALL HUGH HAY M LEITH NORTH EDINBURGH/MIDLOTHIAN 692/01 0667 No Image

Alex.

Paul Dale · Post by **Paul Dale** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:48 pm

Hi Alex,

Thanks for that. I had already sent of for a copy of the 1911 Hugh Hay Dall birth certificate in the hope that it was a typo. Unfortunately, it was correct and not my Grandfather. I'm reluctant to send off for the 1910 one as I think the birthday may be too early. It would be so much easier if there were an image to view first.....

Thanks again.

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:42 pm

Paul Dale wrote:Hi Alex,

Thanks for that. I had already sent of for a copy of the 1911 Hugh Hay Dall birth certificate in the hope that it was a typo. Unfortunately, it was correct and not my Grandfather. I'm reluctant to send off for the 1910 one as I think the birthday may be too early. It would be so much easier if there were an image to view first.....

Thanks again.

What you need here Paul is some kind person to have a wee rummage at NRH or Park Circus.

Paul Dale · Post by **Paul Dale** » Wed Dec 31, 2008 6:17 pm

No idea what those are Nelmit. If they're of use I hope I could find said kind person......