Finding Isabella Marr.....

[Rab]

I've slammed straight into a brick wall in the search for a Lanark birth certificate from 1899/1900. I'm hoping for suggestions. I've run up more credits on SP than I'd care to examine via searches and wrong image views without success. To be honest now I have run out of ideas.

I'm looking for the birth of Isabella Marr in 1899 or 1900 in Lanark. I've tried variations of the christian name (Ella, Isobel, Isabel, Isobella, etc.), the surname and even the mother's maiden name. I've even looked further afield to the mother's birthplace of Kingarth, Bute. No luck.

Here is what I know, any pointers would be appreciated.

1901 Census Govan, Lanark-
William R Marr, 36, Brassfounder, Lanarkshire
Isabella Marr, 35, Buteshire
Isabella Marr, 1, Lanarkshire
Agens Black, 17, Shop girl, Buteshire
NOTE Agnes Black is the illigitimate daugher of Isabella Marr, m/s Black. I have never found a marriage certificate for William and Isabella either.

1905 "Astoria" Manifest- arrival at Ellis Island, New York-
W Marr, 40, Brassfounder, Scottish, Partick
Mrs Marr, 38, Scottish, Partick
A Marr, 20, Scottish, Partick
E Marr, 5, Scottish, Partick
NOTE Agnes Black Is now calling herself Agnes Marr and Isabella has been shortened to Ella.

1910 Buffolo, Erie, NY Census-
William R Marr, 45, Head, Brass Co., Scotland, Im. 1906
Isabella Marr, 43, Wife, Scotland, Im. 1906
Ella Marr, 10, Daughter, Scotland, Im. 1906
NOTE Agnes Black/Marr does not appear.

1920 Buffolo, Erie, NY Census-
William R Marr, 55, Head, Brass Founder, Scotland, Im. 1906
Elizabeth Marr, 53, Wife, Scotland, Im. 1906
Ella Marr, 20, Daughter, Clerk, Scotland, Im. 1906
NOTE Isabella Black Marr changed her name to Elizabeth Marr.

1930 Kenmore Village, Erie, NY Census-
David Mehrhof, 28, Head, Chemist., New York
Ella Mehrhof, 30, Wife, Scotland, Im. 1906
Norma J Merhof, 2, Daugher, New York
Isobel Marr, 64, Mother-in-law, Scotland, Im. 1906
NOTE Isabella Black Marr changed her name again, this time to Isobel Marr.

SSDI-
Names: Ella MEHRHOF
Birth Date: 29 Oct 1899
Death Date: Jan 1977
State or Territory Where Number Was Issued: New York
Actual Death Residence: Florida
NOTE This would point to Isabella (Ella) Marr being born on the above date but I can find no record of the birth.

[Davie]

Greetin's Rab,
I have a few Marr, families on my own records.
I am new on this board, but like yersel, huv a heavy Electron bill wey a few of the other paying sites.
Did your William have a sister Marion?
And does the R in William, stand for Russell?
This is not my lot, but I came across them on a search for my side from Glasgow.
Awarabest
Davie Frae Glesga (and not the other one)

[Rab]

Awright Davie

You are spot on. It was William Russell Marr I was referring to and he did have a sister Marion Marr. I'm thinking that since you mention Marion then the you must have been researching the Gilmour family.

I have Marion's birth, marriage (to Alexander Gilmour) and death certificate as well as images of her in the census from 1871-1901. There is some sort of link with Bute as I mentioned with my ancestors above. Marion Gilmour died on Bute. I think this comes from the Russell side of the tree but I may be wrong.

[sporran]

Hello Rab,


the subject should be "NOT finding Isabella Marr". Like you, I was unable to find anything likely for the birth of Isabella around 1899-1900, or for the marriage of her parents. However, there are some interesting observations along the way.

1864: William Russell Marr is born in Tradeston (Glasgow) to Robert Marr, brass founder, and Marion ms Russell.

1884: Agnes Black is born in Kingarth, Bute as the illegimate daughter of Isabella Black.

1891: Census in Kingarth has widow Jane Black with 2 Pollock grandchildren (her daughter Mary married John Pollock in 1872 then moved to the Glasgow/Dumbarton area), grandson Robert Duncan (illegitimate son of daughter Jane Black and James Duncan), but also married daughter Isabella Marr and grand-daughter Agnes Black. I found no marriage of Marr and Black between 1884 and 1891.

1891: Census in Govan has Robert and Marion Marr with two children and boarder Bryce Black, aged 15, born Kingarth. Bryce Black was Isabella's sister and was with the family in Kingarth for the 1881 census. I could not find William Marr in Scotland for this census.

1896: Robert Marr dies at Kinning Park (Glasgow), aged 68. Informant was son Hugh.

1912: Marion Marr dies at Govan (Glasgow), aged 78. Informant was son Hugh.

I find it odd that there appears to be 15 or 16 years between Isabella Marr's children and that we have no sign of daughter Isabella's birth. I tried every combination of possibilities that I could think of but with nothing turning up. I can only suggest a visit to NRH, and looking through the index fiches for the relevant areas of Glasgow in 1899 and 1900 to see if anything likely turns up. Mistakes are made in all processes, and this birth may have been missed from the index, or indexed with a name that we can not imagine.


Regards,

John

[Rab]

Hi John,

Thanks for the reply.

This missing birth is very strange. I have a feeling the marriage never happened between her parents but the birth deifnitely did as we know. There are alot questions with this couple. I'm not sure whether William was the father of Agnes Black and we'll never know that unless she had it recorded on her death certificate- even then there is no guarantee it is true.

William's disappearance from the 1891 census is a strange too. I actually think he was in the USA at the time and have found what looks like a match in a passenger list to New York in 1889.

I think the NRH is the only way Isabella's birth certificate will turn up. I've tried all possibilities too in Lanark and Bute with Ella/Isabella Black/Marr as well as other names. No luck so far.

[AndrewP]

I too had problems with an Isabella in my family tree. I had picked on her as the person in the family to search for in the 1871 census. You expect the youngest child should have the least chance of having the wrong age. So off I went searching for Isabella Watson Paterson, should be in Leith, Midlothian, should be age 1, no sign of her using as many variations as I could think of. How was I to know how badly misread or misindexed she was. I did find the family using another family member. Then with the help of Davie W, she was found in the index - as Jea Paterson. On looking at the handwritten original, you can see Isa, and with a bit oif imagination Jea.

I sent off a contact form to ScotlandsPeople 5 months ago. She is still indexed as Jea and not Isa.

Good luck with finding your Isabella. She is probably there somewhere.

All the best,

Andrew Paterson

[Rab]

Cheers Andrew. I've had similar problems too but mostly with ages being wrong in the census- so I no longer rely on that. I went through nearly all the Marrs born in Lanark in 1899/1900 which cost me quite a few credits just to check the parents without success. It could be that she was born with the surname Black but I wouldn'y even contemplate checking all them out.

A day at NRH might be the only remedy to the problem.

[sporran]

Hello Rab,


I can only confirm your suspicions. I tried all births of Ma*, M??r, even Wa* with no first name, and Isa*, *ll*, and Eli* Marr and Black everywhere, but no joy. I really think that the indexes at NRH will be the last hope.

Andrew: appreciate your annoyance at the failure to correct the record. When the minutes come out, you will see that this is an ongoing issue with SP (GROS at NRH seem to correct quickly). Please e-mail me with the details and reference since I am about to send a list to SP for action.


Regards,

John

[Davie]

Greetin's Rab
Like most of us researching oor family, I have problems with spellings, misspellings, ages and guesswork on the sites.
It took me a while to realise that the birth place given on Census' is often not where the person was born.
Where my flat is in Glasgow, there were 7 parishes within a two mile radius, the Kirks are still there and within ten minues I can walk to four of them
Isabel is a nightmare. I have several in my own lot.
Like John (Sporran)If the list is not too big I just leave out the Forename.
I had a look on SP for you.
Here is what I did,
Put in only the Marr surname
No forename
Sex: Female
Year range 1889-1901
County/city records: LANARK (All districts)
there were only 17.
So you could expand the year search to 1888 when you look yourself.

1 1899 MARR AGNES CLARKSON F ST ROLLOX GLASGOW CITY LANARK
2 1899 MARR ANNIE REID F HUTCHESONTOWN GLASGOW CITY LANARK
3 1900 MARR CATHERINE LOVE F GOVAN GLASGOW CITY LANARK
4 1900 MARR CHARLOTTE F BLACKFRIARS GLASGOW CITY LANARK
5 1901 MARR CHRISTINA GARTO F PARTICK GLASGOW CITY LANARK
6 1899 MARR HELEN F PLANTATION GLASGOW CITY LANARK
7 1900 MARR HENRIETTA DRYSD F HAYWOOD LANARK
8 1901 MARR JANET F CAMLACHIE GLASGOW CITY LANARK
9 1899 MARR JEANIE HENDERSO F TRADESTON GLASGOW CITY LANARK
10 1899 MARR JEMIMA F LEADHILLS LANARK
11 1900 MARR JESSIE F GOVAN GLASGOW CITY LANARK
12 1901 MARR JESSIE BROWN F GOVAN GLASGOW CITY LANARK
13 1901 MARR JOSEPHINE F KELVIN GLASGOW CITY LANARK
14 1900 MARR LUCY JANE MUIR F CAMBUSLANG GLASGOW CITY LANARK
15 1899 MARR MARIA DODDS F DALZIEL LANARK
16 1899 MARR MARTHA DENHOLM F CAMLACHIE GLASGOW CITY LANARK
17 1901 MARR VIRGINIA F MILTON GLASGOW CITY LANARK


It would be good if you found the birth certificate as it should give you the date of her parents marriage.
I have never been able to trace the marriage certificate of my grt Grandfather.
Finlay McNaughton to Susanna Strachan Paterson, though on all their children's birth certs have it in Corrie Drymen 1862.
I have seen it on the IGI, but on no offical record.

Awrabest
Glesga Davie

[DavidWW]

.....much snipped ......... I have never been able to trace the marriage certificate of my grt Grandfather.
Finlay McNaughton to Susanna Strachan Paterson, though on all their children's birth certs have it in Corrie Drymen 1862.
I have seen it on the IGI, but on no offical record.

Awrabest
Glesga Davie

Davie

The IGI record for the 27Jun1862 marriage of Finlay McNAUGHTAN (sic) and Susan PATTERSON is a patron submission. In other words it did not come into IGI via the extraction process from the official records for births and marriages for 1855 to 1875, plus 1881 and 1891 ......

That means that the marriage does not appear on the microfilms that the LDS made of the relevant Scottish records. (I believe, but would have to check this, that the LDS microfilms were made direct from the original register.)

That doesn't mean that it's not there, just that it could have been missed out of the microfilming conversion process.

However, the fact that it does not appear on ScotlandsPeople, extracted from the separately created GROS microfiches tends to suggest an alternative explanation......... (that is, barring some weird indexing failure, but there would have had to have been failures on the part of GROS and LDS)

...which is that the marriage, while perfectly legal, was irregular, - see various threads here.

To make that a certainty requires a visit to NRH and a look firstly at the index pages of the microfiches for Drymen for 1862, and maybe then a scan through all Drymen marriages on the fiches for that year, checking that there are no numbers missing. (Strictly speaking you are not allowed to scan a register, but it can be discreetly done without anyone knowing.)

David