Help with apparent dead end

[Ayrshire tattie]

Thanks Rockford and emanday for the welcome messages.
I'm hoping someone with more know-how than a relative beginner like myself can help me out with William Barr. His daughter, Anne Barr, born in Greenock 13.03.1865 was my great great grandmother. Anne's mother was Mary Smith from Dumfries. I haven't been able to find their marriage and William's death record (28.10.1893 Maybole) has "unknown" under parents' names. William was a boiler maker. I have found him on the 1861, 1871 and 1881 Censuses. His age is given inconsistently - 25 in 1861 (Bridgeton), 34 in 1871, 43 in 1881 (both St. Quivox, Ayr), and 58 on his death record. This could make his year of birth anything from 1834 to 1838. As I don't have names for his parents or any siblings I can't pinpoint him among the OPR births for that period or find him on the 1841 or 1851 Censuses. On the 1871 and 1881 Censuses he gave his place of birth as Glasgow, Lanarkshire, but on the 1861 Census it looks like "Burnhouse", Lanarkshire. Google searches for "Burnhouse" haven't come up with anything useful. Searching the 1851 Census hasn't turned up any teenage apprentice boiler makers. There are about 25 William Barrs of appropriate ages on the 1841 Census, but how do I know which is him? There is a William Barr, age 4, at "Burnside", Glasgow, with James Barr, a tanner, age 33, Margarate Barr, age 30, and John (8), Mary (2) and Alexander (1) Barr, but I can't find this family on the 1851 Census.
Not being able to find William and Mary's marriage hasn't helped with the mystery. On their childrens' birth records that I've been able to find it's given variably as Dumfries, Maxwelltown and Troqueer, and as 19.08.1857, 14.09.1857 and 22.07.1858.
Janet born 18.03.1858 Troqueer
Twins James and Mary born 22.05.1862 Bridgeton
Anne born 13.03.1865 Greenock
Helen / Ellen born 30.05.1866 Perth
William born 21.05.1875 St. Quivox, Ayr
On the 1861 Census there are 2 other children: Isabella, age 4, born Dumfries and William, age 3 months, born Glasgow, for whom I haven't been able to find birth records. The birth record for another daughter, Jane, born Glasgow c. 1870 also eludes me.
Mary had been married before to Robert Hunter who died in Dumfries 01.08.1855. She had 3 children with him.
James registered his father's death and it's strange that he wasn't able to provide parents' names - he had no such trouble providing Mary's parents' names when she died in Kinning Park in 1892.
I am due to spend the day at Park Circus in Glasgow soon and would much appreciate any helpful suggestions on where to look next.
Donna.

[nelmit]

Hello Donna and welcome to TS,

For the moment here are William's and Isabella's birth -

ISABELLA SMITH
Female

Event(s):
Birth:
14 SEP 1856 Dumfries, Dumfries,

Parents:
Mother: MARY SMITH


WILLIAM BARR
Male

Event(s):
Birth:
29 DEC 1860 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland

Parents:
Father: WILLIAM BARR
Mother: MARY SMITH

The family fair got around a bit - I really thought it was 2 different families after a parent search at the IGI but the census records prove different!

As you can see Jane was Born as Jeannie.


Results for: Father: William Barr, Mother: Mary Smith

1. JANET BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 18 MAR 1858 Troqueer, Kirkcudbright, Scotland
2. MARY BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 29 JAN 1860 Troqueer, Kirkcudbright, Scotland
3. JAMES BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 22 MAY 1862 Bridgeton, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
4. HELEN BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 30 MAY 1866 Perth, Perth, Scotland
5. William Barr - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 21 MAY 1875 St Quivx, , Ayr, Scotland (this is a submission)
6. WILLIAM BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 29 DEC 1860 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland
7. MARY BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 22 MAY 1862 Bridgeton, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
8. JEANIE BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 06 APR 1870 High Church, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
9. ANNIE BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 13 MAR 1865 Middle Or New Parish, Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
10. MATILDA HUNTER BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Birth: 05 MAY 1868 Hutchesontown, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
11. WILLIAM BAIN BARR - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 26 NOV 1873 Milton, Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland

My first port of call at Glasgow would be The Mitchell Library. With a family that size there is a good chance of a poorhouse application at some point. If I get the chance tomorrow I will have a wee look.

Regards,
Annette

[nelmit]

Ancestry has his place of birth as Broomhouse in 1861.

A google finds this -

"Broomhouse" is also an area in the East End of Glasgow, adjacent to the former Glasgow Zoo.

[AndrewP]

Hi Donna,

I think I've found the marriage for William and Mary in Troqueer on 14-Sep-1857. They are listed as WILLIAM DUNBAR and MARY SMITH. Having taken a look at the marriage certificate and the Mary's 1892 death certificate, her parents' names match. As far as I understand, part of Maxwelltown was part of the Burgh of Dumfries across the River Nith into Troqueer Parish in the Stewartry (county) of Kirkcudbright, so in a sense the marriage places given on the various birth certificates could all be correct.

If the marriage certificate is to be believed, William's mother was CATHERINE SMITH and Mary's mother was CATHERINE SMITH (maiden surname ANDERSON). The implication was that William's parents were not married, as SMITH is the only surname given for her. Mary's parents' names have been scored through on the certificate - I am not sure what meaning, if any, to take from that.

All the best,

AndrewP

[Ayrshire tattie]

Thank you, nelmit and Andrew P for your help. I hadn't come across the Mary Barr born in 1860 before. Mary senior had a busy year giving birth to Mary in January 1860 and then to William in December of the same year. As for Jeanie, I'm pretty sure I checked all the Jane, Jean, Jean(n)ie and Janet Barr births around 1870 when I was last at Park Circus and discounted them all for some reason or another. Perhaps the parents names were somehow wrong, or "boiler maker" wasn't given as the father's occupation. It is on all other documents for him and I have come to see it as the confirmation I need to be certain I have the right person.
I hadn't come across the Matilda Hunter Barr or William Bain Barr either. That's because I don't know how to do IGI searches using parents' names without a first name for the child. I know IGI says you need batch numbers but as I don"t know how to get batch numbers I end up with a huge list of results for the whole of Britain or just search using likely first names. I wonder where "Matilda" and "Bain" came from. Most of the other childrens' names fit because I recognise them from Mary's family.
The 1861 Broomhouse birth can't relate to William Barr senior as he was 25 in the 1861 Census and by then some of his children had already been born. None of the 3 sons they named William were born in 1861 either (1860, 1873, 1875).
As for the marriage, I suppose Dunbar is similar to Barr. I know Mary's parents were William Smith, a blacksmith in Dumfries, and Catherine Anderson. I have William Smith's OPR Birth (1802 Kirkcudbright), their OPR marriage (1825 Dumfries), their Census records for 1841, 1851, 1861 and 1871, and the names of Mary's siblings and some of their marriages. I also have the death records for William Smith (1872 Dumfries) and Catherine Anderson (1893 Dumfries) giving their parents' names from which I was able to find their OPR marriages (Thomas Smith and Janet Richardson 1797 Dumfries) and (John Anderson and Isobel Stoan 1799 Troqueer).
It looks like I need to have another look at the 1830's OPR births, 1841 and 1851 Censuses, this time looking for William Dunbar with Catherine Smith as his mother. Maybe I'll find a William Dunbar or William Smith apprentice boiler maker. From what I understand "boiler maker" was a skilled trade for which he would have had to serve an apprenticeship and it is given as his occupation on all documents I have for him from the 1861 Census through to his death. I've always had a feeling that William's father's name was James as I haven't seen any James in Mary's family but William and Mary named a son James.
Thanks again for all your help, it's very much appreciated.
Donna.

[WilmaM]

That's because I don't know how to do IGI searches using parents' names without a first name for the child.

It's actually quite easy:
just fill in:
Father's first & last name
Mother's first name
Region.

You can add Mother's last name and specify the Country and County too
to narrow lost down a little.

It's a very helpful little trick.

[nelmit]

Ancestry has his place of birth as Broomhouse in 1861.

A google finds this -

"Broomhouse" is also an area in the East End of Glasgow, adjacent to the former Glasgow Zoo.

Sorry I may have mislead you. It is William senior's birth around 1836 that is given as Broomhouse on the 1861 census.

What religion was William senior?

I wonder if this one is worth considering in 1851 -
name: Wm Barr
Age: 15
Estimated birth year: abt 1836
Relationship: Inmate
Gender: Male
Where born: Glasgow, Lanarksh
Parish Number: 644/1
Civil parish: Glasgow St John
County: Lanarkshire
Occupation: Scholar
ED: Catholic Orphan Institution

Regards,
Annette

[Ayrshire tattie]

Thanks Wilma for the tip re. IGI. It's good to know all the searching tricks.

Annette, I read the place of birth on the 1861 Census as "Burnhouse" not "Broomhouse", but I do struggle with the old handwriting.
None of my ancestors that I've discovered so far have been anything but Church of Scotland, but it's entirely possible that other religions will pop up as my research progresses. William being an orphan would tie in with his son not being able to provide parent names for his death record, so it's a possibility I'd considered. I hadn't come across the one you found, or any other William Barrs in institutions during my Census searches.
Thanks again,
Donna.

[nelmit]

Hello Donna,

I had a look at poorhouse indexes at The Mitchell today but the only definite one was from Helen born 1866 at Perth. I didn't have time today to look at the application but I'm sure it will be because she was pregnant, as see her at Ayr in 1891 with her 8 month old daughter and living with her sister Jane.

I'll happily transcribe that application for you but it probably won't tell you any more about William senior than you already know.

Regards,
Annette

[Ayrshire tattie]

Thanks Annette for the info. from the Mitchell.
I was aware of Ellen/Helen's baby as I've seen her with Jane and her family on that 1891 Census entry. I've so far managed to follow Anne/Annie (the one I'm descended from) and some of her siblings through some marriages, deaths and censuses.
As I'm fairly new to genealogy I've pretty much been sticking to these main records. I know there are lots of untapped resources out there - burial records, kirk session records, poor relief, etc., but I haven't even begun to make use of them. I only discovered GenesReunited, IGI and Freecen a month or so ago!
I made enquiries some time ago about using the Mitchell for my research but was told it wouldn't be of much use to me as a lot of my ancestors were from Ayrshire rather than Glasgow. Can you tell me how I go about accessing records there?
Thanks,
Donna.