John Arnot/Agnes McGilchrist married 1822,Campsie,Stirlin

[kiwibird56]

Hi Folks,
Below I have listed all info I have on my GGGrandparents John Arnot and Agnes McGilchrist and their children, while living with their parents, thinking it would be helpful to get it out on TS. Nothing is that simple though and new questions popped up as I was compiling this, which I have written in italics, with the hope that maybe someone will have some answers.

JOHN ARNOT / AGNES McGHILCHRIST married 1822
MARRIAGE OPR CAMPSIE, STIRLINGSHIRE Source- Marriage Banns OPR , ScotlandPeople website
1822 SEPT 14TH John Arnot and Agnes McGilchrist gave their names for proclamation, 2 days later married– 16TH SEPT 1822
Although I have a photo of the OPR page with the banns entry it does not state which church it was. Is it possible to find this out?

JOHN ARNOT BIRTH Possible 1797 source- Birth OPR, ScotlandPeople
The only John Arnot birth recorded in Beith, Ayrshire near 1800 was in 1797. Born July 16th 1797 Baptised July 17th Parents were Thomas Arnot and Isobel Wallace. This would fit with John calling his 1st son Thomas and 2nd daughter Isabella.

AGNES McGILCHRIST BIRTH 1803 source FamilySearch website
Baptised Jan 27th 1803, Baldernock, Stirling
Parents: John McGilchrist and Margaret Millar from Baldernock

1841 CENSUS - PARISH OF CAMPSIE Source-ScotlandPeople
Address: BARFOORS
JOHN ARNOT 40yrs Liming M --- AGNES ARNOT 38yrs --- MARGARET ARNOT 17yrs --- AGNES ARNOT 15yrs --- THOMAS ARNOT 10yrs --- JOHN ARNOT 7yrs--- HELEN 5yrs --- ELISABETH 3yrs --- ROBERT 5 months
Here in 1841 both John and Agnes seem to have an "n" to signify where they come from and all the children have a very squiggly capital T. Does someone know the significance of these letters? In 1851 census John records being born in Beath, Ayrshire and Agnes born in Balderncok, Stirling, with all the chidlren being born in Campsie, Stirling.

1851 CENSUS – PARISH OF CUMBERNAULD, C.DUMBARTON Source- ScotlandPeople Website
Address: Craig House , CUMBERNAULD
JOHN ARNOT Head, married 49yrs Limeston miner, Born - AYRSHIRE,BEATH---- AGNES ARNOT Wife, married 48yrs Domestic Duties, Born - STIRLNGSHIRE, BALDERNOCK---- ELISABETH ARNOT Daughter 12yrs Scholar, Born - STIRLINGSHIRE, CAMPSIE---- ROBERT ARNOT Son 10yrs Scholar, Born - STIRLINGSHIRE, CAMPSIE---- JAMES ARNOT Son 7yrs at home, Born - STIRLINGSHIRE, CAMPSIE---- WILLIAM ARNOT Son 4yrs at home, Born - STIRLINGSHIRE, CAMPSIE

JOHN ARNOT's DEATH Have be unable to find his death cert on ScotlandPeople or Ancestry Between January 1853 and June 1855???
His death would have occurred between 1853 and 1855 because on January 19th 1853 John and Agnes are both named as requesting and receiving permission to record their youngest childrens’ birth and baptisms in the Parish Record Book of the Relief Church in Lennoxtown (see below) and on Agnes’s Death Cert in 1855, John is recorded as deceased.

AGNES ARNOT (nee Mcgilchrist) DEATH CERT source-ScotlandPeople website
DIED : 1855 June 4th AGE: 53 YRS, AT:Beachead, Parish of Cathcart (Had been living there for 6months) Widow of John Arnot
Parents: JOHN MCGILCHRIST (Farmer), MARGARET MCGILCHRIST (Nee MILLAR)
CHILDREN (at time of death): Margaret, Deceased 26YRS IN 1851
Isabella 31 yrs--- Agnes 26yrs --- Thomas 24yrs--- John 22yrs--- Helen 20yrs--- Elisabeth 18yrs--- Robert 16yrs--- James 13yrs--- William 10yrs

BIRTH AND BAPT of their 6 YOUNGEST CHILDREN source -OPR Births ScotlandPeople---- All Recorded on Jan 19th 1853 in OPR of Relief Church, Lennoxtown, Campsie, Stirling----- Rev. James Brown Baptised them all
JOHN ARNOT BORN 24TH APRIL 1834 BAPT 4TH MAY 1834
HELEN ARNOT BORN 5TH AUGUST 1836 BAPT 13TH AUGUST 1836
ELIZABETH ARNOT BORN 14TH APRIL 1839 BAPTISED 22ND APRIL 1839
ROBERT ARNOT BORN 6TH JULY 1842 BAPTISED 14TH JULY 1842
JAMES ARNOT BORN 9TH AUSUST 1844 BAPTISED 16TH AUGUST 1844
WILLIAM ARNOT BORN 11TH JUNE 1847 BAPTISED 19TH JUNE 1847
Before I bought this record from SP I had found the IGI Indvidual Records for the above children and their older siblings on the FamilySearch website. Although the dates in these are correct the place is incorrect recording the baptisms taking place at Clachan Of Campsie,Stirling. This is not in Lennoxtown, where the Relief Church was. Does anyone know why this happened?

IGI Individual Records of 4 Oldest Children source FamilySearch website
Although I am doubtful that Clachan of Campsie is correct
MARGARET ARNOT Born 12 Jul 1823, Bapt 27 July 1823, Clachan of Campsie
ISABEL ARNOT Born 3 Oct 1825, Bapt 16 Oct 1825, Clachan of Campsie
AGNES ARNOT Born 5 April 1828, Bapt 20 April 1828, Clachan of Campsie
THOMAS ARNOT Born 13 Jul 1830, Bapt 15 August 1830, Clachan of Campsie

Many Thanks
Chris in NZ

[LesleyB]

Hi Chris

Here in 1841 both John and Agnes seem to have an "n" to signify where they come from and all the children have a very squiggly capital T. Does someone know the significance of these letters? In 1851 census John records being born in Beath, Ayrshire and Agnes born in Balderncok, Stirling, with all the chidlren being born in Campsie, Stirling.

Without seeing the original, I would guess the letters you mention are likely to be N for No - not born in county and Y for Yes, born in county - the 1841 did not state place of birth, only whether a person was born in the county in which they were living at the time of the census or not. See: http://www.talkingscot.com/censuses/census-1841.htm
However, I have seen examples where it seems to have been interpreted as "in this parish" or "not in this parish"!

Before I bought this record from SP I had found the IGI Indvidual Records for the above children and their older siblings on the FamilySearch website. Although the dates in these are correct the place is incorrect recording the baptisms taking place at Clachan Of Campsie,Stirling. This is not in Lennoxtown, where the Relief Church was. Does anyone know why this happened?

IGI Individual Records of 4 Oldest Children source FamilySearch website
Although I am doubtful that Clachan of Campsie is correct

My guess would be that Clachan of Campsie, as the Parish Church, may also have note of the christenings even though they may have taken place in a dissenting church. Do the christenings appear twice on the SP site?

Although I have a photo of the OPR page with the banns entry it does not state which church it was. Is it possible to find this out?

Normally one would assume it was the local Parish Church, although in this case with what appears to be a connection to the Relief Church, I can understand why you ask!

Best wishes
Lesley

[AndrewP]

On a list I have, the non-Church-of-Scotland churches in Campsie parish which have records in NAS are:

• Campsie Relief Church (records starting from 1845): NAS Ref. CH3/1041
• Lennoxtown St Paul's RC Church (records starting from 1831): NAS Ref. RH21/80

Both of these have been microfilmed and should be available to be ordered into Latter Day Saints Family History Centres.

For some other info, see http://lennoxtownlandscapes.webs.com/pasthistory.htm

All the best,

AndrewP

[kiwibird56]

Many thanks Lesley and Andrew.

For the 1841 census the squiggly T looks also like a Y - one mystery solved. =D>

My Grandfather James Arnots Birth OPR did have only the one result from SP. I was very fortunate to get 6 siblings Birth OPR's all on the one page in the Parish Record Book. At the same time I'm puzzled as to why the parents would do this. One clue is that their father died between this Jan 1853 entry and their mothers death in June 1855. For some reason they felt it important to do this even though the oldest of these 6 children was already nearly 19 years old (born in 1834).
I have just gotten an older siblings Birth/Bapt from SP to see if it mentioned the churches name. Agnes was born in 1828 and no mention of the church. BUT 2 witnesses were named and they are new names for me to look into , George Mathieson and Donald Blair so this is exciting. =D> Also mentioned was where the father John Arnot worked 'Craig and Glen' so another piece of the puzzle in place
I also looked at the Headers for both images but they were the same except for the OPR number so no clues there.

Great to read about the history around Lennoxtown, it's helped me see this area from its historical perspective. I hadn't known that originally Clachan of Campsie was the more prominent settlement in the area and had wondered why the Parish Church was built there.

Cheers
Chris in NZ

[LesleyB]

Hi

I was very fortunate to get 6 siblings Birth OPR's all on the one page in the Parish Record Book. At the same time I'm puzzled as to why the parents would do this. One clue is that their father died between this Jan 1853 entry and their mothers death in June 1855. For some reason they felt it important to do this even though the oldest of these 6 children was already nearly 19 years old (born in 1834).

I have seen several occurrances of this from quite a few differnent parishes: as far as I am aware, it is to do with the impending legal requirement to register all births which started in Scotland in 1855. Some folk seem to have decided in the years coming up to 1855 that they ought to make sure all their children were noted in the OPR.

Best wishes
Lesley

[Currie]

This may be of interest.

“Died at Campsie, on 1st March, the Rev. James Brown, senior minister of the United Presbyterian Church there, in the 80th year of his age, and the 44th of his ministry.” [1854] http://books.google.com.au/books?id=JhE ... 22&f=false

According to “Report of the Commissioners of Religious Instruction, 1837”, Rev. James Brown had been minister of Relief Congregation, Lennoxtown for 25½ years. http://books.google.com.au/books?id=dzYPAQAAMAAJ&pg=222

The United Presbyterian Church was formed in 1847 by the union of the United Secession Church and the Relief Church.

Alan