Who's up for a challenge :-) ?.....

[JustJean]

I have a marriage 8 Dec 1871 between Charles PHILLIPS, house painter, and Clementina ALLAN in Fofar. His parents named Thomas PHILLIPS, Captain Merchant Service, and Helen PHILLIPS ms WATT both living.

The 1871 census in Dunbar gives us:
160 High Street
Thomas Phillips head mar age 44 Master Mariner b. Haddingtonshire, Dunbar
Helen Phillips wife mar age 43 b. Haddingtonshire, Linton
Charles Phillips, son, un, age 20, painter, b. Haddingtonshire, Dunbar

A search for the death of Helen (Ellen) PHIL(L)IP(S) mn WATT gives two:

1 1901 PHILLIPS HELEN WATT F 55 LASSWADE MIDLOTHIAN 691/00 0128 VIEW (PAID)
2 1936 PHILLIPS HELEN VEITCH WATT F 71 MELROSE ROXBURGH 799/01 0054

and as you can see I opted for a view of the first one even though the age looks to be way out. I think this may be the right one even though the poor woman died in the asylum from "softening of the brain" UGH!! And wouldn't you know it the attendant didn't know her parents names and has her listed as a charwoman and a widow of Philip PHillips who happened to be a Seaman in the Merchant Service!! Hmmmmm....

Ok so now go to the 1881 census and try and find Helen and I think this may be her even though the age is out a bit........


Dwelling: 4 Tolbooth Wynd
Census Place: South Leith, Edinburgh, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0224020 GRO Ref Volume 692-2 EnumDist 47 Page 1
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
William TIERNEY M 32 M France
Rel: Head
Occ: Clothier & Outfitter
Julia TIERNEY M 30 F Edinburgh, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Peter TIERNEY 9 M Leith, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Son
Mary TIERNEY 7 F Leith, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Ellen TURK U 21 F Ireland
Rel: Servant
Occ: Clothiers Shopwoman
Jessie BRUCE U 18 F Leith, Edinburgh, Scotland
Rel: Servant
Occ: Clothiers Shopwoman
Ellen PHILIPS W 46 F Dunbar, Haddington, Scotland
Rel: Servant
Occ: Domestic Servant


but surpisingly you also find

Dwelling: Bordlands
Census Place: Newlands, Peeble, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0224034 GRO Ref Volume 767 EnumDist 4 Page 7
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Thomas PHILLIPS M 50 M Dunbar, Haddington, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Master Mariner (Unemployed)
Eliza PHILLIPS M 38 F Etterdum Inverury, Banff, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Occ: Laundress
Eliza F. PHILLIPS 4 F Edinburgh
Rel: Daug
Jane C. PHILLIPS 7 m F Edinburgh
Rel: Daug

and now you really have to ask yourself....spose Thomas sailed off the edge of the known world and instead of dying.....found a new wife.....hmmmmm??

How can I know who is who because I can't find the OPR marriage of Thomas and Helen to know his parents names.....and no I haven't hunted down the marriage of Thomas and Eliza yet....or searched for the death of Thomas....or looked for the 1891 or 1901 census as I was feeling poorly

All suggestions welcome as I'm too tired to figure it out

Jean

[AnnetteR]

Hi Jean

Can't resist a challenge. I am not sure if this will help or hinder but it may clear up your question about the Thomas Phillips and Eliza shown on the 1881 census.

First of all I found a marriage on the IGI of Thomas Phillips and Helen Watts (22 Nov 1847 Dunbar, East Lothian) batch no: M117067 BUT I wasn't able to locate it in the OPRs in Scotland's People. Using this couple as a parent search there were no children listed. Next thoughts were perhaps she had died early on in the marriage and Thomas had re-married but that doesn't explain the death of Helen Phillips in 1901 and it couldn't possibly be the same Helen as she was (according to the DC) born circa 1846 (I don't think marriages of 1 year olds were allowed even then).

Next searched for the birth of one of the children listed on the 1891 census for this other Thomas Phillips and Eliza so I used young Thomisina as it was the rarest christian name and bingo - the mother's name was Eliza French. Looked for a marriage between Eliza French and Thomas Phillips on the IGI and Scotlands People but nothing. Next step - find death of Eliza French being that I had two surnames to work with and she dies in 1914 (Newington, Edinburgh) but by this time she had remarried a John Buist, the first husband being Thomas Phillips (Ship Master). She was a widow at the time of the marriage (1901) so that allowed me to narrow down the death for Thomas significantly. Found the death of Thomas in Cannongate, Edinburgh in March of 1901 (she didn't wait long to remarry did she?) and there is no other wife named on his DC. I know that this is not proof positive that there was no prior marriage but the informant was his daughter Jane Cowan Phillips. The writing on this particular certifcate is terrible so don't waste 5 credits on it. From what I can make out his father's name was George Phillips and take your pick for the mother's name.

I hope this hasn't confused you even more but it might help you to eliminate that particular Thomas.

All the very best with your search and keep me posted.

Regards

Annette R

[isobelc]

Hi Jean,

I did a bit of digging and came up with the same information as Annette. However I started by looking up the birth of Jane C(owan) Phillips in 1880 and that indicates that she was illegitimate. Both parents were down as informants on the birth cert ie Thomas Phillips and Eliza French. There seems to be no marriage between these two in the Scottish records, but I suppose if he was a mariner they could have been married almost anywhere.

Like Annette, I made out George Phillips as the father of Thomas, but couldn't decipher the mother (might be Marion something). The certificate is almost illegible.

Regards,
Isobel (Edinburgh)

[JustJean]

24 hours later and here is the progress......

Thanks to the assist and encouragement from Annette and Isobel I have slogged on and spent another whole evening chasing the elusive proof

Your best clue of George and (maybe) Marion as parents sent me off to the IGI and yup there was one....

George Phillips m Marion Salton registered in Dunbar & Canongate 5 Oct 1813. Parent search turns up Margaret and Agnes and that's it
Just to tantalize the situation a death search of Marion Salton Phillips turns up only one on 31 Jan 1862. She was a widow of George Phililps, Sailor. Inf was a nephew William Purves or Purvis. So no son Thomas showing there.

A deeper dig in the IGI turns up the likely origins of this pack of Phillips to be from parents Thomas and Agnes Matthew. Most children born Crail, Fife but the last on the parent search shows Agnes chr 30 Sep 1798 in Dunbar. Other children are John, George, Lucy, THomas, and Isabel or Jossabel.

Other combinations of parents of Phillips children born in Dunbar are George and Alison Lidgate, George and Agnes Punton, John and Beatrice Craig not all of which I've sorted out but am working on it

Then like a ......why not look at the BIVRI index for laughs and giggles ......and voila.....there are some missing pieces ....

Got the birth of my Thomas to Thomas and Helen Watt 21 Oct 1848...and also got another child born to them Charles on 13 Dec 1850 and chr 7 Jan 1851. Then got a whole new family with Alexander and Marion (May) Faim (Fain) m. 3 Sep 1826 and having a Thomas b 8 Oct 1826 in Dunbar. Also they have a Nancy Mathews Phillip b 8 AUg 1828 and Marian Salton Phillips chr 12 Sep 1833 all in Dunbar. And not only that but Alexander is shown as another son to Thomas Phillips and Agnes Matthew chr 25 Oct 1801 in Dunbar!! Way hey......not too bad!

Am scratching my puir heid a wee bit on just why Alexander and May named their daughter Marian Salton Phillips when Marion Salton was merrit to Alex's brother George.....

and also...I still can't decide which Thomas is the right one and I also can't trace any of these pesky siblings etc into the Statutory records for MC or DC.

I think this does prove though that the Thomas that was with Eliza French was a massive fibber. If his DC was correct in that his parents were the guessed at George and Marion. Well there is only one George and Marion combo and so far the only Thomas born to them was in 1814. Not saying that one didn't die and they had another but still....I think he was taking some years off the top!! Makes perfect sense though that he was a Mariner like his dad.

Now for the other contender...the Thomas born to Alexander and Marion (May) in 1826. He sure would be a good age to be marrying Helen Watt in Nov 1847. And since both of these Thomas's are related and descended from one family then it's likely that more than one took to the sea. I can't find a DC for a Thomas betwen 1871 and 1881 though....but maybe he died at sea? One thing left to check is the OPR Marriage for Thomas Phillips and Helen Watt but I don't hold out much hope it will be of any help....but will let you know!

.....and of course the 1841 or 1851 census indexes might come in real handy....

Thanks again for your kind assistance!!

Best wishes
Jean

[grannysrock]

jean

Freecen has the Dunbar 1841/1851/1861 ... the 2 Thomas Phil(l)ips families are on there.

gotta go tae work urr , if you dont find them I'll stick em up later.

sally (feeding baby and slurping morning tea and reading TS forum... ).

[JustJean]

Hi Sally

You're an angel I tried last night to make that FreeCen site go and all I kept getting was "No Results Found".....I suspected I had overloaded the system but ran out of patience to sit it through. Anyhow...with your help I drummed up the courage to have at it again and have now just waited through 3 hours of searches....many of which got the old "server out to lunch please call back at another time" message but do also have a bunch of data to digest. I just have to stop tripping myself up by getting in the wrong generation

Thanks!
Jean

[isobelc]

Hi Jean,
I've had another look at the 1901 death cert. of Thomas who was 'married' to Eliza French. I'm fairly sure that the mothers name is Marion Fane (it's definitely not Salton). If this is correct then the father 's name seems to be wrong as Marion Fane was married to Alexander Phillips, not George Phillips. There are no children listed for this couple, but I think I have found Marion and some children on the 1851 Dunbar census. She is listed as May Phillips age 49, Sailor's Wife and the children are Nancy 22, Margaret 15, John 13, Isabella 10 and George 7.

Marion and Alexander were married in 1826 in Dunbar. By a stroke of luck Marion died in 1855 and her death certificate lists her children and their ages in 1855. The eldest son is given as Thomas aged 28, who is the informant of the death. Other children are Nancy 26, Alexander (who was either deceased age 3 or 3 years previously), Marion 21, Margaret 19, John 17, Isobel 14, and Georg 11. Alexander Phillips her husband was deceased in 1855. She was the daughter of Thomas Fane, a soldier and Isobel Fane ms unknown.

Thomas Phillips (Age 24) is listed in Dunbar in 1851 along with Ellen (22) and Thomas 2 and Charles 3m. In 1861 Helen(32) is listed along with Charles(10). She is described as a Sailor's Wife. No sign of son Thomas or her husband, who was probably at sea. In both 1851 and 1861 Helen has Prestonkirk as her place of birth. There were two Helen Watts born in Prestonkirk in 1829. (1) to Andrew Watt and Jean Gordon and (2) to James Watt and Ann Sinclair.

If Thomas was 24 in 1851, then he would have been 28 in 1855. It seems not impossible that Thomas who married Eliza French and would appear to be the son of Alexander Philips and Marion Fane is the same Thomas who was married to Ellen Watt. Not sure how you would ever prove it however.

Regards,
Isobel

[JustJean]

Hi Isobel

Oh dear here we go again ! I too have got all that census detail and was leaning towards that Thomas son of Alexander and Marion(Mary)(May) being mine. Alexander is in the merchant service and so is his son Thomas. The ages fit. BUT I had not considered that this Marion(Mary)(May) Faim (Fain)(Fane) might also be the mother's name on the DC of the Thomas that was hooked up with Eliza French as I didn't try to view it

Now it's looking like my Thomas and the THomas/Eliza French could be the same.......

I need a new pad of paper and something to fortify myself but will slog on some more....

stay tuned.....

and if anyone sees something I'm missing please shout it out....any and all answers are warmly welcomed

Jean

[isobelc]

Hi Jean,

I found Helen Watt or Phillips in the 1901 census in Lasswade. She is given as 63 in the census entry, which brings her slightly closer to her true age than the 55 that was given on her death certificate later that year. She is listed within an Institution, presumably the Asylum where she died. Her occupation was Washerwoman and her place of birth East Linton, East Lothian. This is the same place of birth as was listed for Helen, wife of Thomas, in the 1871 census. Athough the age is quite a lot out and the husband's name is wrong on the death cert.I think this is probably your Helen Watt/Phillips.

Regards,
Isobel

[grannysrock]

Jean
Glad you got your stuff on Freecen in the end.
Does look more than possible that Thomas P was a naughty boy. But proving it ....

Sally