one set of parents two sets of children.....

Looking for Scottish Ancestors

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krissy
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:33 pm
Location: wales

one set of parents two sets of children.....

Post by krissy » Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:21 pm

:?
can any one help please? ive just tracked down my dewar ancestors from sterling, after two years of searching i was so pleased , however it seems that the records show that my dewars also had another family? so we have one in fife and one in sterling! does nyone know how i can sort this out pleeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaase?
krissy

AndrewP
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Dewars of Fife/Stirling

Post by AndrewP » Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:31 pm

Hi Krissy,

Welcome to TalkingScot.

Can you give more information? What were the parents' names? What childrens names and years have you in Stirling, and what children's names and years have you in Fife?

Given that information, more help should be forthcoming.

If the names and years are the same, it could be that they were baptised twice - in both the mother's and the father's home parishes.

All the best,

Andrew Paterson

krissy
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:33 pm
Location: wales

Post by krissy » Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:46 pm

hi andy thanks for your reply, ok here goes.
john dewar married christian drummond in airth on 14 june 1770
there children as i know are
jean 1777, elizabeth 1779, james 1784,george 1786, william 1788, charles 1791,andrew 1794 all children born in airth, however records show that there are another 3 children also to christian and john but born in torryburn fife. they are,
james 1771, john 1772, george 1775 as you can see this is strange plus the fact that they have given two children the same name twice! and yet the time frame seems possible, i am totally confused since there are no records that show the earlier james and george dying to warrant reusing the names.
well im sure there is an explanation and i would be grateful if you could make some sense of it for me,
thanks a million krissy :wink:

AndrewP
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Dewar family

Post by AndrewP » Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:40 pm

Hi Krissy,

I see that the group below are the ones that you have found using the IGI.
JAMES DEWAR - Birth: 26 MAR 1771, Christening: 31 MAR 1771 Torryburn, Fife
JOHN DEWAR - Birth: 15 DEC 1772, Christening: 20 DEC 1772 Torryburn, Fife
GEORGE DEWAR - Birth: 21 FEB 1775, Christening: 26 FEB 1775 Torryburn, Fife
JEAN DEWAR - Christening: 17 MAR 1777 Airth, Stirling
ELIZABETH DEWAR - Christening: 18 OCT 1779 Airth, Stirling
JAMES DEWAR - Birth: 23 MAY 1784, Christening: 06 JUN 1784 Airth, Stirling
GEORGE DEWAR - Christening: 06 MAY 1786 Airth, Stirling
WILLIAM DEWAR - Christening: 12 APR 1788 Airth, Stirling
CHARLES DEWAR - Christening: 21 APR 1791 Airth, Stirling
ANDREW DEWAR - Christening: 06 NOV 1794 Airth, Stirling
The items to note are:

(1) James, John and George of Torryburn and George of Airth - their births/Christenings are from the OPRs. All of the others are from LDS submissions. The significance of that is that for the OPR ones there is a verifiable trail from written records that you can see copies of. The LDS submissions may well be true, but you should see if there is any means of tracing where these records came from - depending when the LDS submission was made, you may be able to trace who submitted them and hence satisfy yourself of the evidence.

(2) I would not be concerned about children's names appearing twice. As there was a fairly strong usage of naming children after parents, grandparents etc., if a child died young, then the next child born of the same gender was commonly given that same name.

It seems reasonable to assume that these all comprise of one family. The marriage of 14 JUN 1770 in Airth, Stirling is also from the OPRs. The distance from Airth to Torryburn is not far, about 10 miles (including a crossing of the Firth of Forth).

All the best,

Andrew Paterson

krissy
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:33 pm
Location: wales

Post by krissy » Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:01 am

thanks again for that andy, still a bit sceptical about it being the correct family but i was assured that james born 1784 was the only one born in sterling at that time . i really had nothing to go on, only that he married in cornwall and died there in 1855.so unless i find out differently i have to assume that they could be the missing link.
thanks again for you help
chrissie

AndrewP
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Dewar family

Post by AndrewP » Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:09 am

If you are seeking a link from the James who married and died in Cornwall, have you looked at the censuses of 1841 and 1851 for the part of Cornwall where he died. The 1851 census is the most important one, as that should show his place of birth. The 1841 census is only likely to have "S" for Scotland.

I know the Scots censuses are available at the Latter Day Saints (Mormon Church) Family History Centres. I assume that the English ones should be available there too. Normally these can be ordered in for your use for a fee/donation?.

All the best,

Andrew Paterson

Guest

Post by Guest » Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:37 am

Welcome to the group Krissy,Don't let the double names bother you.There can be a number of reasons for that.As Andrew mentioned the first may have died and another later child given the same name.I read recently that it was considered a blessing of a sort for a child to carry a christian name from an earlier family member.But there can be other reasons.I have a family where the first born is Margaret Ann Walker and later they name another daughter Margaret Strachan Walker.I have traced both of these ladies and they both survived to adulthood and married ,having families of their own.It was great fun sorting them out as their middlename is not on all documents.eg.census.
HeatherK

StewL
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Location: Perth Western Australia

Post by StewL » Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:07 am

Hello Krissy

As Andrew and Heather pointed out it is not uncommon for names to be re-used if the child died young. I know this from my own personal experience. The first male child of my parents (now that sounds right biblical) died a day after birth, but as I was the next male child born, the name did not get re-used on me. It was given to the second male child, obviously my young brother.

We are a complicated lot us Scots arent we? :D

I suppose a lot of "rules" are altered depending in the family involved.
Good hunting for your long losts. :D
Stewie

Searching for: Anderson, Balks, Barton, Courtney, Davidson, Downie, Dunlop, Edward, Flucker, Galloway, Graham, Guthrie, Higgins, Laurie, Mathieson, McLean, McLuckie, Miln, Nielson, Payne, Phillips, Porterfield, Stewart, Watson

MaryE
Posts: 105
Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:53 pm

Post by MaryE » Wed Feb 02, 2005 3:51 pm

Hi Krissy

This will probably just frustrate you further but here goes ....

The only James Dewar I can find in the 1851 census in Cornwall is the following:

1851 Census - Cornwall - Piece No. 1900 - ED ? - Folio 63 - Schedule 76
Address - Woar, Parish of Maker

John Welman - Head - Mar - 30 - M - Rigger, HM Dockyard, Devonport - Born Devonport, Devon
Celia Welman - Wife - Mar - 19 - F - Born Woar, Cornwall
Lousa(sic) Welman - Dau - 11m - F - Born Woar, Cornwall
James Dewar - Father-in-Law - Mar - 75 - M - Superannuated Gunner - Born Stirling, Scotland
Jane Dewar - Mother-in-Law - Mar - 69 - F - Born Penryn, Cornwall

The age in this census gives James a date of birth of around 1776 - neatly in between the two you have - :? :!: However, his place of birth would fit with your second James and ages in censuses are notoriously unreliable. In addition to this, there is only one death registered for a James Dewar in Cornwall between the March quarter of 1855 and the March quarter of 1856:

Dewar, James - 1855 - Sept quarter - St Germans - 5c 23

The registration district of St Germans includes the parish of Maker so given that you know that your James died in Cornwall in 1855 it seems very likely that this one in the census is yours.

There is a marriage for a James Dewar and Jane Brown in Maker on 29 April 1816 but I can't find any children born to this couple. Celia, aged 19 in the above census, must be a daughter.

The census info is from www.familyhistoryonline.net and the death registration from www.1837online.com . The marriage is on both familyhistoryonline and the IGI.

The familyhistoryonline site is a pay-per-view site but the minimum payment of £5 is valid for 6 months and it costs only a few pence to view an entry. There is a huge range of records for Eng/Wales available on this. There are a few other Dewar families in Cornwall but I can't see any that link up with yours. The only other adult male around at the time - John Dewar with wife Christina/Christian/Charity Sutton and large family - was born in Hampshire. The later entries are probably all descendants of either this family or your James and Jane. I'm not sure whether the entire 1851 census for Cornwall is online but given how uncommon the name Dewar is down there I think it's very unlikely that you would find another James Dewar born in Stirling living in Cornwall in 1851.

The fact that James Dewar's occupation is given as superannuated gunner suggests that you should be able to find army records on him at The National Archives - www.nationalarchives.gov.uk .

Mary

MaryE
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Joined: Sat Dec 11, 2004 6:53 pm

Post by MaryE » Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:49 pm

Hi Krissy

The further you look, the more you find....

Because I'd got the 1851 census, the marriage of James and Jane and the death of James all in Cornwall I had only looked for children of the marriage in Cornwall. I should know better after all these years :oops: . Widening the parent search for children of a James Dewar and Jane to all counties brought up the following set of children:

Cornelius Glynn Dewer - born 02 Feb 1819, bap 07 June 1819
Orlando Glenn Dewar - born 17 Jan 1824, bap 06 Nov 1826
Alexander Dewar - 03 May 1826, bap 06 Nov 1826
Jane Amelia Dewer - born 16 Jan 1828, bap 07 Apr 1828
Celia Dewer - born 03 Feb 1832, bap 03 Sept 1832

All these baptisms were at the Morrice Street Wesleyan Church, Devonport, Devon. The minor variations in spelling - Dewar/Dewer and Glynn/Glenn - are not significant. Is there anything in your Dewar family to account for the middle name Glenn? It sounds as if it could be Scottish.

There was no maiden name for Jane - there rarely is in baptisms south of the border - but Celia's birth would tie in with the 1851 census entry for Celia Welman. The place, Devonport, would also make sense as there was a large Naval Dockyard there and this would indicate that your James Dewar, the superannuated gunner of 1851, was in the Navy, not the Army. This is supported by a search in The National Archives online catalogue:

Ref: ADM 29/3/87
James Dewar
Rank: Gunner
Born: (Not given)
Age on entry: (Not given)
Dates served: 08 March 1809 - 18 Oct 1823
Date and Type of Application: Admiralty 22 Oct 1823

The Reference (ADM) would refer to the Admiralty records and I presume that the application would be for a pension. Using the age of 75 on the 1851 census this would mean he was 33 when he joined and 47 when he left the Navy. The 1784 birth date you have for him would mean a joining age of 25 and leaving age of 39. There will be more details available in TNA.

A search of the 1881 census for Devon and Cornwall throws up what is almost certainly the Alexander Dewar born 03 May 1826, given the use of Glenn as a middle name for the children:

1881 Census

Dwelling: 7 St Pauls St
Census Place: East Stonehouse, Devon, England
Source: FHL Film 1341530 – PRO Ref RG11 – Piece 2204 – Folio 59 – Page 52

Alexander DEWAR – Head – Mar – 53 – M – Seaman HMS Indus – Willcove, Cornwall
Thos.H.Glen DEWAR – Son – Unm – 20 – M – Boat Builder – Kingsand, Devon
John Glen DEWAR – Son – 15 – M – Unemployed – Stonehouse, Devon
Emily DEWAR – Daur – 13 – F – Scholar – Stonehouse, Devon
Ann DEWAR – Daur – 6 – F – Scholar – Stonehouse, Devon
Emelin DEWAR – Wife – Mar – 48 – F – Seamans Wife – Cawsand, Cornwall

He's ennumerated twice by the looks of it as he's also one of 20 'Shipt Pensioners' on the Indus. The age is slightly out but the Indus vessel matches:


1881 Census

Vessel: "Indus"
Census Place: Devonport, Devon, England
Source: FHL Film 1341533 – PRO Ref RG11 – Piece 2214 – Folio 147 – Page 16

Alexander DEWAR – Mar – 55 – M – Shipt Pensioner – Cawsand, Cornwall

Looks as if the Indus was a sort of sailors' old peoples' home!

Judging by the birthplace of Maker, it looks as though the following E. Jane Littleton and her sister Blanche Dewar are also descendants of James Dewar and Jane, presumably grandchildren?


1881 Census

Dwelling: Cawsand Square
Census Place: Rame, Cornwall, England
Source: FHL Film 1341547 – PRO Ref RG11 – Piece 2279 – Folio 91 – Page 24

James LITTLETON – Head – Mar – 26 – M – Inn Keeper – Rame, Cornwall
E. Jane LITTLETON – Wife – Mar – 26 – F – Maker, Devon
John LITTLETON – Son – 6 – M – Rame, Cornwall
Mary Jane LITTLETON – Daur – 5 – F – Rame, Cornwall
Blanche DEWAR – Sister-in-Law – Unm – 19 – F – Maker Kingsand, Devon

I'll see if I can find Cornelius and Orlando in 1881 - with names like that they should be easy to spot!

Mary