Greenock Industrial Schools Ships - Josiah Gilray.....

Oran · Post by **Oran** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:18 am

I am looking for Josiah Gilray, born about 1879 Greenock, and if he may have migrated on an emigration scheme, or what become of him.

Josiah Gilray is found in the 1881 Census dwelling at, 6 Roslin Street, Greenock with his father James Gilray, mother Elizabeth Phillips, Catherine daughter born 1878. A death entry was found for a daughter Elizabeth is born 1876 but sadly died 4 months, old due to Bronchitis,

Mother Elizabeth died relatively young in 1883 aged 28 years old due to TB. Widower James Gilray eventually married a Isobella, and possibly unable to cope, or young Josiah found where he shouldn’t, is found in the Greenock Industrial School.

1891 census, Josiah Gilray is found in the 'Greenock Industrial Training School', listed as aged 12 years old, along with a long list of other boys.

I contacted the James Watt Library in Greenock, who gave me the following information taken from the Greenock Post Office Directory of 1891 and is the entry is headed

Greenock Ragged School Association:
It is the object of the Association to reclaim the neglected and destitute children of Greenock by affording them the benefit of a good common and Christian education, and training them to the habilts of regular industry so as to enable them to earn an honest livliehood and fit them for the duties of life.
The plan upon which the school is conducted is as follows: The children receive an allowance of food for their daily support; are instructed in reading, writing and arithmetic; trained to industry by employing them daily in such work as is suited to their years; and taught the truths of the Gospel, making the children receive suitable religious teaching.

Mysteriously, after 1891 Josiah disappears, he is not found in the 1901 census, no marriage, and no death records.

Indidentally, there is a marriage of a Josiah Gilray to Hannah Wilson on 23rd September, 1892. But suspect this is James Gilray's brother.

I understand, the boys were trained on ‘Industrial Training ships’, such as the ‘Cumberland’ which would have been moored on the Clyde, she was destroyed by a fire in 1889 and replaced by a ship called the ‘Empress’.

I have read, 'boys were trained for entry into both the Royal Navy and the Merchant Service. However, after the Royal Navy decided to accept only boys of good character, the training became more oriented towards the Merchant Navy'.

Does anyone know where I might find the records for children in Industrial Training Shcools, in Greenock, and how I might find further information, or even locate Josiah Gilray.

Post by **Tracey** » Thu Feb 09, 2006 7:07 pm

Hello Oran

I had a peak on http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline Registers of Seamen's Services for your Josiah but didnt find him.
There was one Gilray

Description Name Gilray, James
Official Number: 290859
Place of Birth: Greenock, Renfrewshire
Date 17 June 1880
Catalogue reference ADM 188/468
Dept Records of the Admiralty, Naval Forces, Royal Marines, Coastguard, and related bodies
Series Admiralty: Registers of Seamen's Services
Piece 290501-291000

One of yours maybe ?

I saw your Josiah on 1881 Scottish census but not this James (also searched 1881 British Census just in case.)

Tracey

Oran · Post by **Oran** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 3:40 am

Hello Tracey,

I cannot thank you enough for taking the time searching and finding this information, thank-you very much.

The birth place, and date tally, and I am wondering if it's possible that Josiah has changed his name to his fathers name James for some reason, (maybe for the reason he was admitted to the Industrial Training School in 1891 and the Royal Navy deciding to accept lads of good character) which would explain his dissapearance after 1891.

I did download the PDF from the link you listed above, which states:

Date & Period of C.S. Engagement. 31 December 1898 - 12 years (not sure what C.S. stands for)

Also there is a list of ships with dates of that he served on, date of birth, 17th June 1880, and where born, Greenock, Refrewnshire.
I also noted the records are Kept at Kew, and wonder if there might possibly be more detailed information there, such as address's to positivley identify James.

All in all, I am delighted with what you have found, and I very much appreciate it, should keep me busy for hours searching for the ships and thier movements.

Looks like James is dismissed 31.3.1903 for bieng objectionable, let's hope he got married and had lots of issue's.

Thank-you once again Tracey, I owe you.

Post by **Tracey** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 7:14 pm

Hello Oran

Date & Period of C.S. Engagement. 31 December 1898 - 12 years (not sure what C.S. stands for)

Me either but could be Cabin Steward

.
Have you got his Birth Certificate of SP ? There is only one Josiah b 1880 then double checking by clicking Greenock it matches so .............

Hope he turns out to be yours.

Good luck
Tracey

Oran · Post by **Oran** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:41 pm

Hello Tracey,

Thank-you for replying, I dont have the birth cert. for Josiah Gilray abt. 1880 however, I do have have the 1891 census entry for Josiah in the Greenock Industrial School, and census finds, marriage, and death, entry's for his parents

May I ask what SP means please?

Have you got his Birth Certificate of SP ?

May I also ask, without trying to be glib, if you are asking a question below? or stating that this Josiah is a match?

There is only one Josiah b 1880 then double checking by clicking Greenock it matches so .............

I look forward to your reply

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:54 pm

Hi Oran
I think what Tracey was saying was - have you got his birth entry from the Scotlands People web site? And that the Josiah born in 1880 in Greenock looks very likely, but she has not looked at it so couldn't say for sure.

Hope this helps, and sorry for jumping in Tracey

Best wishes
Lesley

Post by **Tracey** » Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:58 pm

Its ok Lesley i am typing my response now ! will have to go back to qwerty or Pitmans as it was known when i was at school for a typing lesson !

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:00 am

Hi Oran
This seems to be them in 1881, address as you stated. No sign though of the Catherine you mentioned? Where did you find her?

Dwelling: 6 Roslin St
Census Place: West Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203573 GRO Ref Volume 564-3 EnumDist 5 Page 13
James GILROY M 26 M Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: General Labourer
Elizabeth GILROY M 26 F Fort William, Inverness, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Josiah GILROY 10 m M Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Son

There is another Josiah aged 23, also born Greenock in the 1881- I wonder where/if he fits in? Possible brother of James Gilroy above?

Dwelling: 15 Lyle St
Census Place: West Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203570 GRO Ref Volume 564-1 EnumDist 30 Page 16

Annie MITCHELL W 42 F Johnstone, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Householder
David HUTCHESON U 21 M Burntisland, Fife, Scotland
Rel: Lodger
Occ: Shopman (Grocer)
Willm. THOMSON U 24 M Inverkeithing, Fife, Scotland
Rel: Lodger
Occ: Law Clerk
Willm. FORBES U 24 M Nairn, Nairn, Scotland
Rel: Lodger
Occ: Saddler
Josiah GILROY U 23 M Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Lodger
Occ: Engine Fitter

and next door is:

Dwelling: 15 Lyle St
Census Place: West Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203570 GRO Ref Volume 564-1 EnumDist 30 Page 16
William GILROY M 61 M Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Brass Finisher
Marion GILROY M 60 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Duncan GILROY U 24 M Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Shopkeeper
Ann GILROY U 16 F Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Jane GILROY U 14 F Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Shopkeeper

...but I'll stop now before I get too carried away!
Best wishes
Lesley

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:01 am

Sorry Tracey - I looked and you were not showing up as being on TS at the time.
Apologies.

Best wishes
Lesley

Post by **Tracey** » Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:03 am

Hello Oran

Many appologies but after so long you take the abbreviated SP for granted

www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk - this, if you are unaware is Scotlands online downloadable data base of birth marriage, death, census and Wills for a fee £6 for 30 credits. There is also a link to this at the top of this page if you click on either it will tell you what they do cover. I dont know if it is a match as i dont have available credit to view the birth certificate but it should cost you 6 credits - 1 to search for the name and 5 to view the cerificate. If this is your Josiah it will give you the name of his parents to confirm what you know or not and his parents marriage place and date. On this i did a search of your Josiah putting name, year and birth place - Greenock and i got one result ( even without putting a birth year in there is only one result)

Out of interest where did you get the information you do have from ?

Tracey