Confused about James Harper!

garibaldired · Post by **garibaldired** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:18 pm

I seem to be getting more confused with James Harper rather than less!
He married Hannah Dob(b)ie in Lasswade in 1842 and subsequently lived with his wife and family in Cleish Kinross-shire.
He always gives his birthplace as either Carrington Midlothian (as on his daughter's 1855 birth cert) or Inveresk and his age is consistent with a birth year of c1819.
In 1841 the census shows him in Cleish working as a sawyer. However in Inveresk in the 1841 census there is a household:
Piece SCT1841/689 folio 12 page 20, Eskside
HARPER Mrs F 55 Outside census county (1841)
HARPER William M 25 Joiner Midlothian
HARPER James M 20 Joiner Midlothian

In 1881 William is still in Eskside with his sister Christina who died in 1882. Christina's death certificate confirms that she and William are the children of William Harper and Christian Ronaldson (the same parents I had thought were "my"James')and that William senr was a master joiner.

Now I wonder whether I have been too quick to presume James'
parentage?
I'd really appreciate some help here from those of you who are much more expert than me.
Thanks,
Meg

Post by **Tracey** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:42 pm

Hello Meg

Now I wonder whether I have been too quick to presume James'
parentage?

Do you have James death certificate to confirm his parents ?

The IGI shows these born to William and Christian

1. JOHN HARPER
Christening: 20 FEB 1807 Inveresk With Musselburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
2. MARGARET HARPER
Christening: 28 JUL 1809 Inveresk With Musselburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
3. WILLIAM HARPER
Christening: 24 JUL 1814 Inveresk With Musselburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
4. JAMES HARPER
Christening: 10 OCT 1819 Inveresk With Musselburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
5. ANNE HARPER
Christening: 03 DEC 1816 Inveresk With Musselburgh, Midlothian, Scotland

Not that this is any confirmation of James and William but looking at the 1841 census you have put above, about 5 households along is

Piece: SCT1841/689 Place: Inveresk-Midlothian Enumeration District: 7
Civil Parish: Inveresk Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: Inveresk
Folio: 12 Page: 21
Address: Eskside
DOBIE Alexander M 60 Gardener Midlothian
DOBIE Mary F 65 Gardener Midlothian
Are these Hannah,s parents ?

Not much help as thoughts really

garibaldired · Post by **garibaldired** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:28 pm

Hi Tracey,

Do you have James death certificate to confirm his parents

I do have James' death certificate but unfortunately his son the informant didn't know their names!

And no Alexander and Mary were not Hannah's parents; hers were James
and Hannah. I am sure of that!!

Thanks for the thoughts anyway.
Meg

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:51 pm

Hi Meg,
As Tracey mentions, do you have your James HARPER's DC? [just noticed - you do]
I know you have these - it's just to keep them together.
Can't see Christina in the Inveresk area 1841 or 1851. Do you have her on censuses pre 1881?
There is no suitable James a joiner in Inveresk area in 1851.
--
1841 cens 689 Ed 12 p 20 (Inveresk)
Esk Side.
(Mrs) HARPER, 55,-------------b SCT
William HARPER, 25, joiner, b MLN
James HARPER, 20, joiner, b MLN
--
1851 cens 689 (756) Ed M7 p 33 (Inveresk)
Eskside.
Christian HARPER, head, widow, 69, joiner's widow, b Dunbar, ELN [this would agree with SCT in 1841]
William HARPER, son, u/m 35, joiner j/man, b Musselburgh, MLN
--
1881 Census Place: Inveresk, Edinburgh, Scotland
Dwelling: Esk Side
Source: FHL Film 0224013 GRO Ref Volume 689 EnumDist 5 Page 32
William HARPER U 65 M Musselburgh Inveresk Rel: Head Occ: Joiner
Christine HARPER U 67 F Musselburgh Inveresk Rel: Sister Occ: Spinster
--
Jack
ps, a small point re Joiner & Sawyer; whilst both are wood related, they are different occupations.

garibaldired · Post by **garibaldired** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:17 pm

Hi Jack,

There is no suitable James a joiner in Inveresk area in 1851

I don't know whther that's hopeful or not! The 1841 census is the only time James is described as a sawyer;usually he's a forester or gardener. It was the occupation, being the same as William's (presumed father of "my" James)) which drew me to the James in Eskside. Could he have been enumerated in two places? (I'm clutching at straws now!).

Can't see Christina in the Inveresk area 1841 or 1851. Do you have her on censuses pre 1881?

No I have only found her in the 1881 census as I was loaned the CD's and was able to search more widely (and wildly!) than I would on SP.

Looking on the IGI I can find a marriage for a George Ronaldson to Janet Allan in Dunbar in 1780. This would fit in with Christian Ronaldson's date of marriage (1805) and therefore birth. Her IGI entry at marriage gives her father as George Ronaldson. So this fits in with being the right family.
Now I really am confused!
Meg

Jack · Post by **Jack** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:56 pm

Hi Meg,
Certainly very true that some folk are recorded twice in a census.
It's good news in a way that a James HARPER the joiner isn't in Inveresk 1851, but he may yet be found elsewhere in Scotland.
The bad news is that even if you do find another James then you still don't know who your James' parents are....
So looks like it'll need to be a search on SP when the 1851 does come online, but still no proof if you can't find him.
He may have died, moved out of Scotland, or whatever.
Are there any clues with the names of James' & Hannah's children as to what James' parents or gr-parents names might be?
Carrington is abt 8 miles south of Inveresk - Lasswade approx between both.
You may have these DOB(B)IE censuses, but in case not. They don't help solve anything on James though.
====
1841 cens 691 Ed 11 p 13 (Lasswade)
Hawthornden.
James DOBBIE, 58, coal miner, b MLN
Hannah DOBBIE, 50, -------------b England
John DOBBIE, 22, coal miner, b MLN
Robert DOBBIE, 19, coal miner, b MLN
James DOBBIE, 17, coal miner, b MLN
Thomas DOBBIE, 11, -------------b MLN
Margret DOBBIE, 15, --------------b MLN
Agness DOBBIE, 8, ---------------b MLN
--
1841 cens 691 Ed 2 p 18 (Lasswade)
Lasswade Village.
Thomas NOBLE, 45, grocer & spirit dealer, b MLN
Christian NOBLE, 46, ------------------------b MLN
Rebecca NOBLE, 20, -------------------b MLN
HANNAH DOBIE, 20, servant, b MLN
====
1851 cens 695 (760-2) Ed 9 p 1 (Newbattle)
4, 1st Row, Newtongrange. [schedule 4]
Hannah DOBBIE, head, widow, 58, servant, ex, b England
Thomas DOBBIE, son, u/m 20, collier, b Ormiston, ELN
Agnes DOBBIE, daur, u/m 18, servant, b Ormiston, ELN
--
1851 cens 695 (760-2) Ed 9 p 1 (Newbattle)
4, 1st Row, Newtongrange. [sch 5]
Robert DOBBIE, head, u/m?, 30, collier, b Carrington, MLN [unmarried a transcription error?]
Jane DOBBIE, wife, u/m?, 26, servant, ex, b Haddington, ELN
--
1851 cens 695 (760-2) Ed 9 p 12 (Newbattle)
47, 5th Row, Newtongrange. [sch 50]
James DOBBIE, head, marr, 27, collier, b Lasswade, MLN [a possible for James 17 in 1841]
Janet DOBBIE, wife, marr, 27, colliers wife, b Cockpen, MLN
James DOBBIE, son, 4, scholar, b Lasswade, MLN
William DOBBIE, son, 2, -----------b Newbattle, MLN
John DOBBIE, son, 7mos, --------b Newbattle, MLN
====
Sorry i've been unable to help with your problem - some expert advice is needed!
Jack

garibaldired · Post by **garibaldired** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 8:13 am

Jack,

Thanks very much for all those Dobbies. The only thing which makes me doubt they are Hannah's parents is that James is a coal miner. He is described as an army pensioner on her dc. Or am I being too picky?

Are there any clues with the names of James' & Hannah's children as to what James' parents or gr-parents names might be?

That's another thing that makes me doubt William and Christian as his parents; not a sign of those names. The children are Hannah, James, John, Jane, Thomas, Mary Ann, Elizabeth, Margaret, Barbara, Agnes. Similarity with Hannah's family at least! But then if the children didn't know their paternal grandparents perhaps there had been a falling out?!

As you say time for expert help!
Many thaks for your input though Jack It's much appreciated.

Meg

garibaldired · Post by **garibaldired** » Tue Mar 07, 2006 2:32 pm

I'm still banging my head against this particular brickwall

I can't find another James Harper born around the same time (1819) in Midlothian with any better naming patterns. There are no Harpers at all born 1800-1854 in Carrington on SP, though this is where James says he was born. His wife was born in Inveresk.
Should I be widening my sights and looking at marriages which have produced children with names similar to James' children? Or am I making too much of the names?
Just where do I go from here?

How do I tackle it?
Grateful for ANY ideas.

Meg

garibaldired · Post by **garibaldired** » Tue May 02, 2006 2:28 pm

I'm still stuck with this one.

Is there anyone who can give me some ideas PLEASE? I'm just going round in circles! And it's costing me a fortune on SP!!

Meg