My Barton brickwall.....

[StewL]

Hello all you fine people

I have a lovely brick wall, which I have decided to examine again, despite advice from my psychiatrist to leave it alone.

It has to do with my ggggrandfather John Barton and his wife Martha Barton (m.s. Dunlop).
I have absolutely no idea of where and when they were born, and I cannot find a record of either of their deaths at this stage. All I have is that John and Martha were written down as deceased on their son James’ 1889 death certificate, and John was listed as a soldier.

I thought I had a possible death in 1864 for John Barton, but regrettably it was for a 10month old wee soul who died of whooping cough and bronchitis. A poor wee soul who was an illegitimate child to Agnes McLoughlin and John Barton, who might even be one of my long losts.

Looking for Martha was even more difficult, as there are no deaths recorded for Martha Barton between 1855 and 1900, although it is entirely possibly she died before statutory registration. In fact they both may have. Yes I know they were listed as deceased in 1889, but I gave myself a longer spread, just in case

There is a few other possibilities in this case. As their son James was born about 1831 in St……. (Americas), it is entirely possible that;
1. They both died overseas
2, They did not die in Scotland, that is they could have died in other parts of UK
3. Neither were born in Scotland
4. Aliens abducted them, therefore they didn't die.
5. They flitted to Brigadoon and I keep missing them.

I do know that their sone James Barton and Margaret McLuckie were married in 1851, thanks to a kind person on the previous SP site, sending me the banns.

I am not living in any hope that I may find some birth information on this pair, that would be unrealistic, given a rough estimate of when they might have been born, but it would be nice to maybe find when and where they died and make a rough estimate of when they were born.

I may have previously posted on SP about this pair, but I am not sure as I cannot find a copy of my post. So forgive me if I have already posted this query.

Anyway thanks for your help, maybe I might just return to my easier Stewart lot, as you all know, Stewart is a very easy name to search for, especially Alexander and Mary.

[StewL]

No this is not egocentric posting a reply to my own original

I forgot to mention in the previous that James Barton was found under Burton.

Just another mystery to the already perplexing search.

[JustJean]

Hi Stew

You've got quite a mystery there don'tcha? On first read the only question I have it what you think the ..... stand for after St. and before (Americas)? and (sorry 2 questions!) where did you get this little tidbit of info??

If you think James might have truly been born in the US (afterall that is what America means to me ) then it would help to know that. I've looked at the census records and there was a John Barton head of household living in St. Clair County, Illinois in 1830 that falls into the 30-40year old range. He has 2 males 5 or under, 2 females under 5, and one 30-40 (gotta assume this might be the wife!) Then two persons below there is a William Barton head of household with 1 male 20 or under, 1 male 20-30, and 1 male 60-70 (himself???), 1 female 15-20 and 1 female 60-70 (his wife???)

In 1840 John is enumerated in the North Half of St. Clair County, Illinois with 1 male under 5, 1 male 5 to under 10, 2 males 15 to under 20, 1 male 40 to under 50, 1 female 10 to under 15, 1 female 15 to under 20, 1 female 30 to under 40.

In 1850 there is a John W. Barton age 26, wife Sarah A. age 21 and sons Hugh W. age 3 and James H. age 4 mos. John is named as a farmer born St. Clair County. His neighbor is Hugh Barton age 51 farmer, born North Carolina, wife Sarah born Kentucky, children Lucy 19, Sarah 18, Rebecca 16,Mahala A. (female) 10, George P. 15, Daniel 12, and Isaac 8. All children born St. Clair.

This is all purely guesswork so I'll stop there....any of those pieces look likely???

Jean

[StewL]

Hello Jean

I was given information from the 1881 census on James Barton by Andy on the old SP forum, which is as follows:

Dwelling: Bowhousebrae Cottage
Census Place: Shotts, Lanark, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203704 GRO Ref Volume 655-1 EnumDist 1 Page 3
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
James BARTON M 65 M (Other St...), America
Rel: Head
Occ: Gen Labourer
Margaret BARTON M 61 F Merryston, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Alexander BARTON U 14 M Airdrie, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Coal Miner
Patrick NEUGENT U 21 M Ireland
Rel: Lodger
Occ: Gen Labourer
John BARTON U 20 M Airdrie, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Coal Miner

Robert, who was born in 1863, died in 1876.
William was already married to Margaret Phillips by this date, although on Williams marriage certificate, James is down as a coalminer.

Unfortunately after I re-read this information, and compared it with his death certificate, I can no longer be sure they are one and the same, as on James Death certificate in 1889, he is listed as being 58, which puts his age out in the census by about 15 years, and his wife Margaret is out by the same amount also, a span than to me seems a bit much even for a bit of fudging. Then again, perhaps, just perhaps his son William got the age wrong when registering his death, but then again Margaret was listed as 68 when she died in 1903.

I am also now starting to wonder if the family name is actually Barton in earlier times, and maybe it should be Burton, the name James is listed as on his 1851 Banns (refer to TS Gallery). Perhaps I should do a search for Burtons

So it looks at this stage that the long losts you posted may not be related at this stage (never discard a possibility )

I think one of the reasons I put this aside earlier was the brickwalls which kept jumping out and hitting me
Perhaps I was a bit too quick to accept the 1881 census as being my lot, but I do appreciate the help I was given previously on SP. But the fact that they lived in Bowhousebraes leant me to the conclusion that they were mine.

But, there is always a but, it is possible that they did fudge their ages to that amount for whatever reason they might have had at that time.

Now to go a take a valium or two or perhaps hit the bottle

[DavidWW]

Definition time first. Geographically The Americas means, and certainly meant in 1881, "The Americas (sometimes referred to as America) is the area including the land mass located between the Pacific Ocean and the Atlantic Ocean generally divided into North America connected to South America by the Isthmus of Panama The term also usually includes the Caribbean Region including the Caribbean islands".

And it's that bit about the Caribbean Islands that's important, as there are many islands starting Saint, or St., most of which were fought over by a number of nations including the UK in the 17th, 18th and even early 19th centuries, - as a result ignore modern links or affiliations, as the "ownership" of many changed several times.

Many British regiments served in the area.

We could be talking St Barts (St Barthélemy), St Vincent, Sitt Kitts, St Lucia, St Martin, St John, St Thomas, and more...........

http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/search.asp under the WO series will give you several John BARTONs who could have been James' father..............

Davie

[JustJean]

....snipped.........Hi David....I pretty much came to that conclusion after looking at the 1881 census for anyone else born St. or Other or Other State or America...etc. etc. I'm still curious about the dotdotdotdot that appear in only James enumeration though. It makes it appear that it stands for something that the transcriber could not decipher!!! And we'll never know..... snipped............

Not necessarily.... it depends if the "...." is the LDS transcriber, or the original enumerator.

In other words, the jury's out until someone has a look at the original enumeration book.

Davie

[StewL]

Thanks Davie

I will have a look at PRO tomorrow to see how many John Bartons turn up.


Jean

I do have a feeling that the St......... (Americas) does actually refer to the Caribean, and not to mainland U.S.

But I have a sneaking suspicion that this may be a mystery that wont be solved, although I do hope it is

[JustJean]

....snipped.........Hi David....I pretty much came to that conclusion after looking at the 1881 census for anyone else born St. or Other or Other State or America...etc. etc. I'm still curious about the dotdotdotdot that appear in only James enumeration though. It makes it appear that it stands for something that the transcriber could not decipher!!! And we'll never know..... snipped............

Not necessarily.... it depends if the "...." is the LDS transcriber, or the original enumerator.

In other words, the jury's out until someone has a look at the original enumeration book.

Davie

k I could have sworn I had a post in here....how did you put yours where mine used to be???? ie....it's posted under JustJean but signed Davie????? hmmmm.....maybe this board is haunted after all

JustJean

[DavidWW]

....snipped.........Hi David....I pretty much came to that conclusion after looking at the 1881 census for anyone else born St. or Other or Other State or America...etc. etc. I'm still curious about the dotdotdotdot that appear in only James enumeration though. It makes it appear that it stands for something that the transcriber could not decipher!!! And we'll never know..... snipped............

Not necessarily.... it depends if the "...." is the LDS transcriber, or the original enumerator.

In other words, the jury's out until someone has a look at the original enumeration book.

Davie

k I could have sworn I had a post in here....how did you put yours where mine used to be???? ie....it's posted under JustJean but signed Davie????? hmmmm.....maybe this board is haunted after all

JustJean

Whoopsssssssss............

Sorry about that, - I reckon that I hit the "Edit" button instead of the "Quote" button without realising

Not possible to reverse, so please repost your thoughts ..................

Davie

[JustJean]

Didya ever notice how there's always one that has to try punching every button just to see what happens??....................<bg>.............

The old post was just further drivel about the possibilites of St. Clair County Illinois being the St....... birthplace of James Barton. Not worth repeating at this stage....but I'll scream loud and clear if I stumble onto a Martha Dunlop in the vicinity Just at the moment though I'm as stuck as Stewie is s

JustJean