Any advice on where to look next?.....

[catbug]

Hello,

I have had a huge brickwall for a few years now (one of many!) and wondered if anyone had any advice on where I could look next to try to 'knock it down'. I have previously posted details about these people on the old SP discussion group, although I have managed to get some more info since then, so apologies to anyone who has read this before.

The people I am interested in are a William Henry Griffin and his wife Margaret Griffin, m.s. McLeod or Trainer (various spellings). I could not find the marriage of these two, even though on all their children's BCs it states that they were married on the 21st January 1857 in Aberdeen. I have given up looking for this as I have come to the conclusion they either didn't marry at all or had an irregular marriage which they didn't register. I was unable to find one of their daughter's BCs, even though on censuses it gave her age as being born in 1857. I eventually found it about a month ago under Margaret Donaldson Trainer, mother Margaret Trainer, no father. She seems to have been named after her mother's neighbour, who was present at her birth (previously deciphered with the help of the good people on this site ), so her name doesn't appear to be a clue to her father. The strange thing is that this birth was in June 1857 which means if William and the first Margaret did get married then they did it while she was pregnant, with (presumably) another man's child, as although on all censuses she is called Griffin and William gives her relation to him consistently as daughter, not step daughter, she died as Margaret Trainer with no father listed, but under her mother's name it says later married to William Griffin. Also, she was born in the same house as all of William and Margaret's other children. which suggests they could have been living together at the time, or William moved into Margaret's house. Does any one have any opinions on this? Could William actually have been Margaret D's father?

I have also been trying to find the parent's of both William and his wife Margaret, with no luck. I have William's DC but nothing is known about his parent's names, other than his father's surname was Griffin and he was a soldier. He was born in Ireland in around 1820 (age always changes on different documents), although I don't know which county as the censuses never say, so I can't even take my chances with finding his birth, which would be difficult to find anyway. On William's DC it states he had previously been married to (unknown) McDonald, but I can't find a record of this either, nor any children from this marriage, so it sheds no light in trying to find out his parent's names, etc. I have tried burial records, too, as well as being unable to find his MC which should have the details I am looking for. I have also tried poorhouse records with no luck and have no clue on where to look next.

On his wife Margaret's DC I found that her father was called John Traynor, soldier (which surprised me as on all her children's BCs, MCs, etc her maiden name is given as McLeod) and mother Helen McLeod, prev Traynor, ms Findlay. I can find no DC for her mother or father and can't find Margaret on the 1841/1851 censuses as well as having no idea about whether she had any siblings. I assumed her father died when she was quite young, perhaps before the 1841 census, as she was born around 1832 in Aberdeen, due to the fact she appeared to use her step father's surname, but I've since found out she called herself Trainer, not McLeod up until her first daughter's birth. So I am quite confused .

So, in short I am mainly trying to find the names of William's parents and/or where in Ireland he was born and any info at all on either of Margaret's (William's wife) parents. I have tried everything I can think of but cannot find anything useful so any suggestions or advice, etc on where to look next would be hugely appreciated . Apologies for this message being so long but I tried to write as much as I know about them - hope nothing sounds irrelevant!

As I said before, I would be grateful for any help at all!

Thanks,
Cat

[JustJean]

Hi Cat

I think William Griffin fudged his age a wee bit. I think he was living in Dundee all along. The surname Griffin and variations is just unusual enough to get search results all on one page for the whole country. In 1841 there is one in Dundee....a weaver age 30 born Ireland....in 1851 looks to be the same one in Dundee "visitor" at the home of a Chisholm? who looks to be the same chap he was enumerated next to the last census....occupation still weaver and he's widowed......in 1861 you have him in Dundee with Margaret and family a "carpet weaver" age 39 born Ireland. My money is on this being the same William throughout.

Now the question is.....where was Margaret in 1851...do you have her pinpointed?? I know she states born Aberdeen....but her first baby was born in Dundee....and then all the Griffin babies. I can't imagine why William would have traveled to Aberdeen.....I bet it's the other way around! Was Margaret in service somewhere in 1851?

As for William being the true father.....can't say. He never acknowledged it on the BC...and whoever the informant was on her DC didn't acknowledge it either.

It's truly doubtful you'll be able to prove his birthplace or parents. He may have had a connection to this Chisholm? family but it doesn't state that. It is interesting to note that they favored middle names for the children......perhaps one of his daughters carries his mother's name???

Well that was not much help......but at least you know that we're all out here trying!!

Best wishes
Jean

[catbug]

Hi Jean,

Thanks for your reply . I also found those census entries for William Griffin in 1841 and 1851 but wasn't totally sure it was him so it's good to know that someone else thinks that it's likely to be - thanks . I too thought it was interesting tha he seemed to be with the same George Chisholm on both censuses but I can't find any family connection yet.

As for Margaret in the 1841/1851 censuses, I can't seem to find her no matter how hard I look . I found someone who I thought could be a possibilty in 1841 as the same household contains 2 Trainer children, 2 McLeod children and a Helen and William McLeod. There is no relationship given, being 1841, and on further research the Helen McLeod in this house seems more likely to have the maiden name Lundie and not Findlay, although I haven't proved this yet.

On Margaret's (William's daughter/step daughter) DC, it was her brother in law who was the informant, so it seems it could have been 'common knowledge' that William wasn't her real dad. It seems strange though as he moved in with Margaret and had other children so quickly, as well as calling her his daughter and giving her his surname on censuses, even if she didn't use it herself.

I had a kind of theory that William's mother could have been called Jane Gray due to the fact that his daughter was also called that, then grand daughter and the name carries on right until this day, with the Griffin name also added on after Jane Gray and used as a middle name. But that is just a daft theory and probably means nothing . It's a shame I can't find his parents as I don't want to give up but it looks like I might have to .

Again, thanks very much for your reply - it's good to know someone is thinking along the same line as myself.

Cheers,
Cat

[JustJean]

Hi Cat

That family in 1841 in Aberdeen is just too much coincidence not to be taken seriously. Correct mother's name....correct McLeod/Trainer names in same household.....a Margaret Trainer of the correct age range. I think that's her. Problem is I don't find any of them in 1851 either. No brother John Trainer....no wee Georgie...nuthin! I can't help but comment that I don't know where you arrived with LUNDIE....but it's not a far cry from FINDLAY when you sound them out It just might be a misinterpretation!.....but I can't prove it yet either....

Best wishes
Jean

[catbug]

Hi again Jean,

Lundie does sound a bit like Findlay now you mention it - it hadn't crossed my mind before - maybe it is them . The reason I thought her name could have been Lundie is because I could only find 1 George McLeod aged 1 in the 1841 census and when I looked on the IGI there was a George Pirie McLeod born 1840 in Aberdeen with the correct parent's first names. It may not be him though but I thought it sounded like a good bet. I have also looked in the 1851 census for all family members in this house but can't find them either! I also can't find any record of Helen and family's deaths, etc, which is confusing. I thought perhaps they had moved out of the country but Margaret is definitely in Scotland in 1857, so it doesn't explain why I can't find her in 1851.

I'm off to search some more - thanks again for your help ,
Cat

[isobelc]

Hi Cat,

A Helen Lundie or Mcleod died in St Nicholas,Aberdeen on 13th Feb 1860 aged 49.Her parents were William Lundie, Sailor dec'd and Margaret Lundie m/sFindlay. She is described as the wife of a labourer. She died in Infirmary Aberdeen, usual address Jack's Brae, Aberdeen. Cause of death Carcinoma of the Liver, Informant as a superintendant at the infirmary. she is buried in St Peter's Cemetery Aberdeen.

I think you are correct that the Helen in the 1841 census is Helen Lundie but wonder if she is one and the same as the Helen Mcleod, previously Traynor m/s Findlay shown on Margaret's death cert. and that the informant got confused between Findlay and Lundie (grandmother's maiden name insteadof mother's).

Regards,

Isobel

[catbug]

Hi Isobel,

That is very, very interesting, thanks very much . There certainly seems to be some connection due to the similarity in the names. Hmmm.... think I'll have to get my thinking cap on to try and figure this one out! I had almost given up on this but now I'm off to research some more.

Thanks very much again
Cat

[catbug]

Hello again Jean and Isobel,

Just a little update - I am pretty sure now that Margaret's mother was indeed Helen Lundie, and not Findlay, as I have found both the 1851 census entry for Margaret and family, which gives Helen's birthplace as Dundee (could explain why Margaret moved there) and also her brother John's death in 1856. He doesn't appear to have taken the McLeod name, as Margaret may have, and wasn't on the 1851 census with them. His father is given as John Trainer, Labourer (not Soldier as on his sister's DC) and mother is Helen Lunie (sic). Margaret and William's children didn't seem to know an awful lot about their grandparents, nothing in William's case, as they were the informants on the DCs and have got the info all wrong. There is also a possible relation on John's DC as the informant is his aunt. Her name was Catherine but unfortunately I can't make out her last name at all as it's really faded!

I still have a lot to try and find but thank you for helping me get this far ! I'm off to search again!

Cat

[catbug]

Hello,

I thought I'd update this yet again because I've had a big set back due to my own stupidity ! The death of John Trainer I found wasn't Margaret's brother, as after I looked at it after I realised the age was a year or two out, I noticed that the John on the DC's mother was Margaret Lunie, not Helen (I thought Lunie was a mistranscription of Lundie). I must've been too excited to concentrate properly at the time or something - I can't believe I did that ! Therefore the Aunt who is a witness has nothing to do with my line. I have also found the censuses for this John so I know I have definitely made a mistake. I still think that my Margaret's mother is Helen Lundie though so I'll just have to look for the correct John's death to confirm it, even though the one I found was the only one that seemed suitable. Just when I thought I was getting somewhere - but it's my own fault .

Cheers,
Cat