McIntyre Puzzle.....

patjohn · Post by **patjohn** » Sun Jul 30, 2006 6:38 pm

John Thomas McIntyre’s( also known as Thomas John) birth records show his parents as
John McIntyre and Janet Dunlop – 2nd marriage ( aged 39) therefore born circa 1839

I have their marriage record and the father’s Birth and Death records – death record shows both wives

John McIntyre’s first marriage ( aged 25 ) was to Mary McIntyre and I have the marriage record, Mary’s death record and the birth and death records of their baby daughter therefore John born circa 1837

The problem is that on his marriage record to Mary he gives his parents as Hugh McIntyre and Euphemia, M.S.McInnes
BUT
On his marriage record to Janet he gives his parents as Hugh McIntyre and Sarah, M.S.Cameron
AND
on his Death record ( aged 60 ) his Father is given as Hugh McIntyre and no record of his Mother therefore John born circa 1840

No record of a marriage between Hugh and Sarah

In addition the 1881 Census in Govan, showing John (aged 40) , Janet and their family at that time shows John was born in Appin Argyll, therefore John born circa 1841

Going back to the 1841 Census in Appin I can find Hugh and Effy with family John aged 11??? Hugh aged 7 and Mary aged 3

The 1851 Census in Appin shown the family with John aged 21 and still a scholar ???

I cannot find the birth records of John, Hugh or Mary to Hugh and Effy.

I think that the discrepancies in John’s ages can probably be explained by the time of year etc that the records were taken. But am puzzled by no birth records for the family and the discrepancy of John’s age in the 1841 census.

Any suggestions??

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Fri Aug 04, 2006 11:01 pm

Hi Patjohn
I'm a bit uncertain of some of the info you have here:

John Thomas McIntyre’s( also known as Thomas John) birth records show his parents as John McIntyre and Janet Dunlop

Where have you seen this birth record, and what date was it? IGI, SP or in the OPR?

– 2nd marriage ( aged 39) therefore born circa 1839

When did the second marriage take place? And where?

have their marriage record and the father’s Birth and Death records – death record shows both wives

John McIntyre’s first marriage ( aged 25 ) was to Mary McIntyre and I have the marriage record, Mary’s death record and the birth and death records of their baby daughter therefore John born circa 1837

Again, without the dates I'm a bit lost here. Locations would be helpful too.

on his Death record ( aged 60 ) his Father is given as Hugh McIntyre

When & where did he die?

This looks to be the family in the 1841:
Piece: SCT1841/525 Place: Lismore & Appin-Argyllshire Enumeration District: 3
Civil Parish: Duror Qs Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 9 Page: 4
Address: Duror
MCINTYRE Hugh M 40 Hand Loom Weaver Outside Census County (1841)
MCINTYRE John M 11 Argyllshire
MCINTYRE Hugh M 7 Argyllshire
MCINTYRE Mary F 3 Argyllshire
MCINNES Effy F 41 Argyllshire

In addition the 1881 Census in Govan, showing John (aged 40) , Janet and their family at that time shows John was born in Appin Argyll, therefore John born circa 1841

I'd guess a birth around 1840 if he was shown as 41 in 1881 - census is taken in about April so I always take the age as from 1880, not 1881 if you follow. Its not always accurate though, 'cos obviously some folk were born between Jan to March!

If you can provide a few dates and places we may be able to help you get to the bottom of this!
Best wishes
Lesley

patjohn · Post by **patjohn** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:47 am

Thank you for taking so much time. All the records I have are either from Scotland's People or from visiting GROS Edinburgh

John Thomas McIntyre’s( also known as Thomas John) born 4/3/1880 in Maybole Ayrshire

2nd marriage to Janet Dunlop 3/4/1878 Sunnyside Barrhead

First Marriage to Mary McIntyre 9/12/1862 in Inverary
Mary Died26/6/1877 Neilston Renfrew
Baby daughter died 8/5/1878 aged 14 months

John died 18/8/1901 in Rothesay - found dead on the shore

I have found the census record that you mention. but if John was born circa 1840 would he not be circa one year old in the 1841 census not 11

This is the puzzling bit !!

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 1:27 pm

Hi Patjohn
OK - a preliminary look ...and a few more questions!

Hugh McIntyre and Effy McInnes married 19 MAY 1827 Lismore, Argyll according to the IGI.

Have you got note of Hugh & Effy and/or your John for 1851 census?

What was the occupation given for John's father Hugh McIntyre in the following? And how old was Mary?
1st Marriage to Mary McIntyre 9/12/1862 in Inverary ( aged 25 )
parents given as Hugh McIntyre and Euphemia, M.S.McInnes

Best wishes
Lesley

patjohn · Post by **patjohn** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:15 pm

Yes 1851 Census info
Hugh McIntyre aged 54 Occupation Weaver Wool Place of Birth ???? Kilmalie
Euphemia McIntyre aged 57 born ???? Glencoe
John aged 21 - Scholar born in Appin
Mary 14 - Scholar born in Appin
( can't read the ???)

Hugh's occupation given on both John's marriage certificates is Handloom Weaver

Mary was 22 when she got married to John

Don't understand how John could have a scholar at 21 and still living at home - not perhaps at University and if he had been at University, how come he was a Hostler in a hotel at age 25 ( info from marriage record)

Thanks

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:03 am

Hi Patjohn
I've not really had time today to look into this much further. It does all seem pretty odd but here are my thoughts.

I can imagine that it might be possible to get an age well out in a census once - e.g. write 11 when what was meant was 11 months, but if so, the order that the names are given in in the 1841 census would seem to imply he was the eldest anyway, so that can't be...and he seems to have aged appropriately in the 1851 - age 21.

1st Marriage to Mary McIntyre 9/12/1862 in Inverary
( when he says he is aged 25 ) & Mary was 22 according to the info you have provided. If he is the same John as in the census data, which he would appear to be as the father has the same name and occupation and the mother the same first name, and the area is correct, then he would have been, in reality, 32ish.

I just wonder if he claimed to be younger at this point, given the younger age of Mary (22) and then was in a position where he had to maintain this illusion for the rest ot his life! I've seen it happen before but in most cases it tends to be women who knock a few years off their age if marrying a "toy boy"

Because he has made up hs age, he subsequently finds it hard to remember exactly how old he is, and so you get the slight fluctuations in approx. birth year. But hey, he does pretty well at it, the fluctuations are slight - he does better than some folk who thought they were telling the truth! Or maybe he just genuinely lost track of how old he was...have you seen John in the 1861? What is he doing....and what is his given age? (Hmm, I wonder if it is slipping already - he may have met Mary by this point!)

I suspect this is what has happened here but if anyone else can come up with any other angle I'm open to suggestion! Don't all rush at once.

Best wishes
Lesley
p.s.
How old was his second wife Janet at the time of their marriage?

patjohn · Post by **patjohn** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:22 pm

Sorry for the delay

Janet was 38 when she married John.

It appears to be the same John in the two marriages because both wives' names are on his death record.

The puzzle of the two different mothers and the discrepancy in the age on the census makes me wonder if I have the correct parents at all. That and the fact that there are no birth records to Hugh and Euphemia I wondered if perhaps the children had been born to someone else and "taken in" by Hugh and Euphemia, perhaps after the death of their parents. - that is just me guessing. I don't know hwere to go form here. Anybody out there have any suggestions?