Christine Turnbull born c1830.....

[Marie Svedahl]

Hi everyone;
Just found this lovely site today and I'm hoping someone can give me a few pointers. I have several problem areas but will confine myself to one for now.

My gr.gr.grandparents were Alex Doughtie & Christine Turnbull who were md. 5 January 1846, Greensides parish, Edinburgh. Alex was a slater & glazier, and they lived at various locations in Edinburgh until Alex's death in 1860. My problem is with Christine Turnbull and her parents (as stated on Christine's death certificate in 1867) George Turnbull & Christian Fowler/Fuller. I have not been able to find Christine's baptismal record - c1830 - or her whereabouts on the 1841 census.

What I do know of the parents: George was a "glazier" and in 1846 was said to be living at #8 Union St. (in Greensides parish I presume) Can't find him on the 1841 census either. The mother Christian Fowler md. George McKellar in 1831 at Dalkeith, Midloathian., and gave birth to four children before her death in May 1837. George McKellar married again and the McKellar family is found on the 1841 census of Dalkeith - but no Christine Turnbull (or Fowler either.)

To me it appears that Christian Fowler and George Turnbull were never married - or was there such a thing as a divorce in Scotland in those days? I have used the LDS IGI batch numbers to a great extent these last couple months, and also a few years ago had read microfilm copies of some OPRs. Obviously not the right ones because I have never found Christine's baptism.

Any suggestions on what or where to look next for information on my elusive Christine Turnbull.?

[DavidWW]

....snipped.........To me it appears that Christian Fowler and George Turnbull were never married - or was there such a thing as a divorce in Scotland in those days? I have used the LDS IGI batch numbers to a great extent these last couple months, and also a few years ago had read microfilm copies of some OPRs. Obviously not the right ones because I have never found Christine's baptism.

Any suggestions on what or where to look next for information on my elusive Christine Turnbull.?

Hej Marie

What you suggest is a possibility, as is the possibility that the records were never made.

What is equally possible is that the family were members of a secession church, the records of which are not included in OPR or IGI. The problem with a city location such as Edinburgh, is that even if you know the parish where they lived, that is not necessarily the parish where they worshipped!

And then there is no guarantee that such secession church records are extant. Where they are, they are mostly held at National Archives of Scotland in Edinburgh, but without some knowledge of which church there could be a long and possibly fruitlless search involved. Eventually it is certain that these NAS records will be digitised and indexed, but not for a few years.

Did Christine have any sisters, who may have married in 1855 or later, so that there could be a clue in the church information provided on the marriage register entries?

Davie

PS See also AndrewP's excellent description in a recent post in the Scottish People - Margaret Wotherspoon ..... thread.
dww

[Marie Svedahl]

Hi Dave;
Thanks for your input. Regarding your question:
Did Christine have any sisters, who may have married in 1855 or
later, so that there could be a clue in the church information provided
on the marriage register entries?
I don't know of any "full siblings" but she did have four "half-siblings" from her mother's marriage in 1831 to George McKellar.
Jessie Wright McKellar b. 29 May 1832, Dalkeith
George McKellar b. 3 Feb. 1833 Dalkeith
Gilbert McKellar b. 18 May 1834 Dalkeith
David McKellar b. 8 Nov 1835 Dalkeith
.........
The above, half-bro, George was informant for death data when Christine's husband, Alex Doughtie died: "George McKellar, Bonnyrig, brother-in-law." That was the clue which led to my discovery of Christian Fowler's marriage to George McKellar, sr. That marriage & baptism of the four children were all listed in Dalkeith OPR. So I don't think church denomination would have been a problem for the Fowler part of Christine's parentage.

But with her father, George Turnbull it could/might have been a problem.

My only info on him has come from Christine's 1846 md: George Turnbull, glazier, living #8 Union St." and he was deceased by the time she remarried in 1865.

I have looked at census trying to locate both Christine & her father, George. I found one George Turnbull with an occupation associated with "glass" on the 1841 census, but they appear to be of English origins. In 1851 there was household in Edinburgh (Tolbooth #4) residing at 7 James Court which looked promising.
George Turnbull -hd. - m - 44 - (master glass manufature ?) - Hawick, Roxborough.
This George had md. Violet Smith in St-Cuthberts parish, Edinburgh in 1836. That info is from the IGI. This family should have been on the 1841 census but so far I haven't found it.

One other thing, I did find Christine & husband, Alex on the 1851 census. The handwriting was not the greatest and I had problems deciphering "place of birth" for Christine but eventually decided it was "Fisherrow." A search of the index to Inveresk parish registers for 1820-1854 didn't find any Turnbulls. My search of both the census & index were done several years ago, and maybe I should re-do them with fresh eyes.

I'm rambling here - thanks again for your post. I did as you suggested and read the "wotherspoon" exchange. It was really informative, makes you appreciate what you do find.

[AndrewP]

.... but she did have four "half-siblings" from her mother's marriage in 1831 to George McKellar.
Jessie Wright McKellar b. 29 May 1832, Dalkeith
George McKellar b. 3 Feb. 1833 Dalkeith
Gilbert McKellar b. 18 May 1834 Dalkeith
David McKellar b. 8 Nov 1835 Dalkeith....

One thing looked wrong about the above list. The first two children are only approximately 8 months apart. On checking the IGI, it shows Jessie as 29 Jan 1832 - a bit healthier.

All the best,

Andrew Paterson

[Marie Svedahl]

Thanks Andrew! My database also shows her birth as January of 1832. My fingers must have slipped on that one or maybe its a sign of old age.

Also I wanted to correct something I said in my previous post. It wasn't the 1851 census where I found "Fisherrow" as Christine's birthplace. That bit of information actually came from the 1855 civil registration of birth for one of her children. Because of failure to later find Christine's birth in Inveresk parish I wasn't trustng what the certificate said. Now, I am beginning to realize that Fisherrow was likely correct. Definitely will have to order the LDS film for Inveresk parish.

Thanks, Andrew for pointing out my error.

[Marie Svedahl]

My original Turnbull research was over 20 years ago. My papers & binders gathered dust (didn't have a computer back then) until this past February. A trip to Salt Lake City and the LDS library was in the offing so I did some quick on-line searches, adding "possibilities" to my meagre Turnbull history. My time in SLC was successful in adding more information about Christine's mother (her md. to George McKellar) but only one possible find for father, George Turnbull.

This was from - "Street List of Electors of the city of Edinburgh, 1854." There were a goodly number of Turnbull names and even a few "Georges" but none at #8 Union st. (where he was reported living in 1846.) Also none associated with glass or glazing. HOWEVER there was something I didn't pick up on until after I had returned home - There was a George Turnbull in James Court. His occupation was what caused me to ignore the entry before: gas fitter. This document was a printed report but it would originally have been written by hand and poor handwriting could lead to "glazier" being read as "gas fitter" - maybe? Would there have been an occupation of "gas fitter" in the 1850s?

But back to Christine:
I've been attempting to wade through my piles of paper from my previous research, hopfully to weed it down to a more manageable file with all pertinent data duly entered on computer. Note - I did say hopfully.

The following are three more documents dealing with Christine Doughtie (ms Turnbull) -
1. 1861 census: Parish of St. Marys (I think), Edinburgh. #1 Nelson Pl.
Christine Doughtie - head - wid - 34 - Dairy Shop - birthplace was a "ditto" from the line above for East Lothian then something like Fie-- (maybe meant to be abrev. for "Fisherrow"??)
Also listed are her two sons Alexander, 7, scholar & George, one, plus 3 servants.

2. Marriage certificate - 5th Jan. 1865, #8 Forth Street, Edinburgh, after banns according to the forms of the Church of Scotland -
Alexander Prentice, mason journeyman, bachelor, age 24 (or maybe 34?) residence #2 New Broughton, Edinburugh. Parents: Alexander Prenice, farmer, & Jane Prentice (ms. Lindsay) &
Christina Doughtie or Turnbull, keeper of dairy, widow, age 35, residence #1 Nelson Place, Edinburgh. Parents: George Turnbull, glass cutter, dec. & Christine Turnbull (ms. Fuller) dec.
Witnesses: Wm. Glover, minister of Greenside parish; Andrew Prentice, James Christie.

3. Death certificate for the District of St. Andrew in Burgh of ...
for Christine Prentice, widow of Alexander Doughtie, Slater Master, and married to Alexander Prentice, Dairyman Master. died 1866, July 4th at 1 Nelson Place, Edinburgh, female, 27 years, father, George Turnbull, glass cutter, deceased, mother, Christina Turnbull, M.S. Fuller deceased. Alexander Prentice, husband was the informant.

As you can see, Christine's age bounces around - with resulting birth year anywhere from 1827 to 1839. Perhaps she shaved off a few years because of marrying a younger man??

If you are wondering what became of the two children? The 1871 census findes 11 yr. old George living with a Doughtie uncle in Dunse, Berwick. But 18 yr. old Alexander and his stepfather, Alexander Prentice, were in Canada, living with another Prentice.

I have copies of other documents, including the 1851 cnesus (which I have stored away so safe that I have yet to find it!) but I don't think they supply much more info than what I have given here. The "clues" are definitely pointing to Fisherrow as being Christine's birthplace so although I didn't see any baptism there for a Christine Turnbull or Fowler in the IGI, I think the OPR registers for that parish are worth a try.

But where were both Christine & her father during the 1841 census?? Is the 1841 census completely indexed & on-line?

[AndrewP]

Most of the addresses that you list in your postings above are within a small area, close to the area that I would regard as Greenside nowadays (near the Playhouse Theatre [formerly cinema] for those who know the area at the top of Leith Walk). Union Street and Forth Street are there; Nelson Place not so far away westwards. Greenside Parish was probably a quoad sacra parish (a sort of sub-church-parish within a larger parish). In the case of Greenside, the larger parish would be St Andrew, which covered much of the East End of Edinburgh.

The one address that does not fit well with these is James Court which is about a mile away (as the crow flies) just down the hill from Edinburgh Castle. I cannot say this is not your George Turnbull there, but he looks less likely. You refer to George Turnbull there as a gas fitter. That is an occupation that was probably plentiful at that time as houses were probably having gas lighting fitted in that era.

You'll have to wait for the 1841 census to appear online at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk - hopefully later this year, or at worst into next year. Then it should be fully indexed with images available (like 1871, 1891 and 1901 currently are).

All the best,

Andrew Paterson

[Marie Svedahl]

Hi Andrew;
Thanks for your very informative post - your description of the streets in that section of the city was very helpfull. I know where Nelson Place is so I can orientate the rest in my mind. My husband & I found our way to #1 Nelson a few years ago, and I took a snapshot.

You may be correct about the gas fitter occupation. The reason I was trying to stretch that entry to fit was that on the 1851 census there was a George Turnbull on that same street who was in the glass business.

In my last post I mentioned all the unorganized papers I have yet to sort through? - well, just now I went digging to see just how the 1851 census had described George's occupation. The book fell open at a page I likely haven't looked at since I wrote it - it says:
LDS reel #477331 item 5: Post Office Annual Directory, Edinburgh 1840, page 124:
Turnbull, Alex, manager for Edinburgh & Leith Glass Co., Glass Works.
Turnbull, George, glass drop ? manuf. Greenside Lane.

It really looks like glass making was a family occupation. But how my George was connected to it all, remains to be seen.

I think before I do any more posting to the Forum, I need to spend a few hours organizing what I have so that I can find what I want when I want it.

Thanks again for your input, I do appreciate it.

[Marie Svedahl]

Continuing the saga of Christine Turnbull/Fowler -

From the IGI on-line transcripts I found the birth of JOHN PRENTICE
- Male Birth: 18 SEP 1865 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Birth: 18 SEP 1865 Edinburgh Parish, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland
Father: ALEXANDER PRENTICE / Mother: CHRISTINA TURNBULL
.....................
Will be looking into a possible early death for this John as his name has never surfaced before in my research.

Found in my notes was an entry for a Fowler household, 1841 census for District 52 of St.Cuthbert parish, Edinburgh - LDS reel #1042790. Page 5, address was something like Hope–and ??
Fowler, Elizabeth - 50 - washerwoman - out of county birth
" James - 24 - Ag.Lab. - out of county
" Janet - 20 - F.S. - out of county
" Christine - 15 - F.S. - in county
Hogg, Ann - 7 - - in county
.......................
This entry was copied a number of years ago (before I came up with the theory that Christine's parents weren't married) and so I copied the information as an aid for future research of the Fowler family. At that time I never considered the possibility that 15 yr. old Christine Fowler might actually be "my Christine."

What are the chances that this Fowler family were connected to my Christine Turnbull? I don't know as yet. But it did turn my attention to the Fowler family line - and I will share what I found there under a separate thread.

Any comments or suggestions welcome.

Marie