Stuck with cross border Mackenzie's.....

[jemhay]

Hi, I'm new here and would dearly love some guidance on finding my Mackenzie's whom from family anecdote came down from Scotland to Middlesex.

I have been looking for over five years now (but I am overseas, so all via the web)

This is what I have so far, but I'm afraid it isn't much:

My great grandfather "Kenneth Mac Kenzie" was married in Islington London 24 Jan 1905 aged 31 years, a Bachelor and Warehouseman's assistant, his bride - Charlotte Hudson, was 16 years old and a spinster.

Kenneths Father was Colin Mac Kenzie (spelled this way on the marriage certificate) a deceased Police Inspector.

This is all the 'fact' that I have so far; but the police inspector ties in with the family anecdote that Kenneths father was indeed in the police force - and rumoured to have served in the Perthshire force in Scotland.

I am stumped! I cannot find Colin anywhere in England except for one reference that could be him in the 1891 English Census that shows the following:

County of Lancaster

27, King Street

Head - George Holder or Holden

Mackenzie (no given names)
Lodger
Married (but with no other family present)
age - 47 (this would fit, as Kenneth would have born about 1873 or 4)
Occupation - Detective Police
Employed
Born - Scotland, Castle Donnington

Is there a Castle Donnington in Scotland? The only one I get on google is in Derbyshire!

I cannot find a definitive birth anywhere for his son Kenneth to connect the two - I don't know whether Kenneth was born in Scotland or England, or indeed, which side of the border Colin was married, or his wife's name. I know nothing of either of their death's. (I cannot locate Kenneths wife Charlotte either, other than the marriage).

I did try contacting the Lancashire police regarding historic records of employees, but got no response.

I have ordered a couple of BMD's, but they don't seem right, though I haven't much to go on. One is a death of a Colin, which turned out to be a suicide (shot himself in the head with a revolver). He is the right age, but wrong occupation (book keeper) and no family reference, died in 1885 aged 45 years.

The other is a birth for a "Kennith" in 1874, father Colin, but his father is a Civil Engineer! (Bit of a leap from that to "Detective"?), though Colin is said to have been in the police in Scotland.

Interestingly though - the mothers maiden name on this certificate is Eliza, formerly Roberts, and there IS an Eliza (but last name is Boyles) on the 1891 Census as "Head" whilst the above Mackenzie is in Lancaster. She, too is shown as married AND has a son "Kenneth Mackenzie" with her born abt 1874. They are resident in London. She is born Scotland, Kenneth in London.

I am so frustrated does anyone have any ideas as to where to go with this???

[LesleyB]

hi Jemhay
Did you try the 1901 census for Kenneth? I had a quick look but was not seeing anything obvious.. but that in itself is not conclusive as I'm not too hot on English records!
I feel certain somebody will be able to come up with somethign more helpful that this!

Best wishes
Lesley

[AndrewP]

I am stumped! I cannot find Colin anywhere in England except for one reference that could be him in the 1891 English Census that shows the following:

County of Lancaster

27, King Street

Head - George Holder or Holden

Mackenzie (no given names)
Lodger
Married (but with no other family present)
age - 47 (this would fit, as Kenneth would have born about 1873 or 4)
Occupation - Detective Police
Employed
Born - Scotland, Castle Donnington

Is there a Castle Donnington in Scotland? The only one I get on google is in Derbyshire!

Welcome to TalkingScot.

I cannot think of a Castle Donnington in Scotland. The Derbyshire one that you have found is home to Donnington Park, the motor racing circuit.

All the best,

AndrewP

[jemhay]

hi Jemhay
Did you try the 1901 census for Kenneth?

Thanks Lesley,

I have found 'a' Kenneth on the 1901, but again nothing that connects him to anything I have - he is a 'visitor' at the Liffen household in Gillingham st London. He is born Scotland at the right time (1873) and is a Bank Clerk.

So still no way of knowing if he's 'my' Kenneth

He always seems to be anywhere but at 'home' at Census time!

[jemhay]

Welcome to TalkingScot. All the best, AndrewP

Thanks Andrew! Seems a great site for information and advice!

I'm pretty sure the Derbyshire Castle Donnington is the only one, too! Throws another spanner in the works, as the Census says Colin is Born both there and in Scotland - it can't be both!

Though the only 'matching' Kenneth's I'm finding are all born Scotland, so maybe that's where I should look for his birth - but I have no idea how to go about that; but that's why I'm here. I understand it's necessary to know the place of birth to find Scottish records? If that's so, I don't have that information, only that it *might* be Perthshire, and that his father is a Colin and was a Policeman/detective. Hopefully some kind soul can point me in the right direction.

I have looked at Scottish Origins and have a paid subscription to the site, but I do find it a bit confusing. Probably because I'm not that familiar with Scottish records yet.

[AndrewP]

Hi Jemhay,

The primary source for Scottish birth, death and marriage records is www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk - link at the top of this page. It is a pay per view site, but have a read around the site before committing your money to it. It details which records are available.

If you decide to go for paying to search, and hopefully view some records, you will find that searching can be done for all of Scotland, but the search area can also be narrowed down if you have any information that you are confident is good.

All the best,

AndrewP

[jemhay]

Hi Jemhay, The primary source for Scottish birth, death and marriage records is www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk

Andrew thank you so much for giving me the push to go there again; I did try long ago, but had even less information than I do now, plus I assume their database would have increased somewhat, too!

I bit the bullet and spent a small fortune - but I think it was worth it! I found them both AND Colin's Marriage! So after five plus years, I'm pretty happy at the moment!

Although I only had the rough dates, I did find a Colin as a police Constable with a son Kenneth of the right age - so I think it's a pretty safe bet. There weren't thousands coming up in my searches - mostly a page or less (about 20 records or so), so it looks good. Also, although the names are common, I would think that the combination with occupation is not?! Maybe Im wrong, but I'd much rather not be...lol.

Now I have another question as a result. Can anyone tell me if there are any records of those leaving Scotland to live in England? I'm guessing not.....

[LesleyB]

Hi Jenhay

I bit the bullet and spent a small fortune - but I think it was worth it! I found them both AND Colin's Marriage! So after five plus years, I'm pretty happy at the moment!

Brilliant news! - finding them, that is, not the small fortune!!

Is there any hope then of catching the whole family in a census in Scotland to try to establish when they were still here? It should be possible to narrow it down to at least a ten year period, perhaps even less if, for instance there were more children born between one census and the next.

Best wishes
Lesley

[jemhay]

If I could ask some more advice?......

This find is very exciting for me - but how would you go about making certain that it's correct?

I know ideally I need to find Kenneth's birth, to confirm his mothers name, I have his father as Colin and Police Inspector (deceased) from his marriage, but how do I know for sure the Colin Police constable in Scotland is the correct one? (He was the only match across Scotland at the right time, though is this enough?)

LesleyB - I will have to cough up some more money and try your idea with the Census.

The only thing I can come up with so far - is that the 'no name' Mackenzie
I found in Lancashire (1891) as a boarder (but is a Police detective) was maybe in England in connection with his work, and the rest of the family was at home in Scotland as I can't find them anywhere in England at time (1891), except for the Eliza with a son Kenneth - but she has no other children with her, and Kenneth was the oldest according to the Scottish 1881 Census.

I also found Colin as an unmarried Constable on the 1871 Scottish Census boarding in Callanish. He married Ann Mckenzie that same year and then Kenneth was born in 1872 in Beauly, Inverness (from the 1881 Census)

They went on to have:
William and Duncan, both born Lewis, Ross and Cromarty
Colin and James, both born Greenock, Renfrew

Hope you can make sense of all that....

[hoadsfarm]

I can't remember where I saw it but I recall someone else searching for a McKenzie policeman and what caught my eye was that for a short period of time he was stationed in Battle (East Sussex) just down the road from me.