Barrie from Larbert Stirling

sheilavee · Post by **sheilavee** » Sun Jan 28, 2007 12:23 am

Hi everyone!
I am looking for any information on my deadend.
My g/g/grandmother was Helen BARRIE. So far I have been unable to find her birth or indeed her marriage. She 'married' Robert ALLARDICE who was born 19 Jan 1817 in Kirriemuir, Angus and died 17 Oct 1887.
My g/granny appears to be her first child, b.12 Dec 1848 in Kirriemuir.On this birth she is called Helen BARRET. Second and third children her name is Ellen BARRET. Children four to ten, she is called Helen BARRIE.
I havent found her on the 1841 census ( Not sure if she was still in Stirling then, or if she was in or around Kirriemuir by that time).
In 1851 she is in Kirriemuir with her husband Robert and their two children - Betty (Betsy) my g/granny and John. Age is 23 and place of birth Falkirk.
In 1871 she is still in Kirriemuir with Robert and four of her children. Age is 45 and place of birth Larbert, Stirlingshire.
In 1881 she is still with Robert and two of her children in Kirriemuir. Age is 52 place of birth Larbert.
In 1901 she is in Stirling (Ellen Allardice) widow age 75 born Larbert.
She died in Stirling 21 April 1916. Unfortunately, the son who registered her death gave her age as 78 - (he was already 65 at that time, and had been her second child!!) Also, he didnt know the names of her parents and put down - (blank) BARRETT for both parents!
Any ideas how I can find her birth and marriage? Birth looks like it could be anywhere between 1825 and 1829.
Any help will be appreciated.

Post by **SarahND** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:12 am

Hi sheilavee,
Welcome to Talking Scot!

Sorry your post hasn't been answered yet. You have a very difficult detective job here, as I'm sure you know!

In case you have not got her in 1861 yet, this looks like the family:
1861
7 Muir Drumshade, Kirriemuir, Angus
Robert Allardice, 44, head, born Kirriemuir, Ploughman
Ellen Allardice, 33, wife, born Larbert, Stirlingshire
Susan Allardice, 52, sister, born Kirriemuir, Linen Weaver
Betsy Allardice, 12, daughter, born Kirriemuir, Scholar
John Allardice, 10, son, born Kirriemuir, Scholar
George Allardice, 6, son, born Kirriemuir, Scholar
Duncan Allardice, 4, son, born Kirriemuir, Scholar
Robert Allardice, 1, son, born Kirriemuir

The other census you don't mention is 1891 (you can see I am trying to fill in the gaps in case there is additional information!) I can't find her

I was hoping she went to live with a brother or something so we could find out her true maiden name! Ah well...)

Have you downloaded the OPR images of the births of her children from Scotlands People? Are they noted down as illegitimate or not? This would at least give you an idea of whether or not you should try to look for a marriage.

One possibility is that she herself was illegitimate and so her birth surname would be that of her mother. In my research I have seen many cases like this where the child later takes the father's name.

Sorry, I haven't been much help. Have you found anything further since you posted this topic?

All the best,
Sarah

sheilavee · Post by **sheilavee** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:45 pm

Hi Sarah,
Thankyou for your reply. The 1861 census was new to me, so thanks for that. I haven't found her on the 1891 yet either.
I hadn't thought of getting the images of her children as I already knew the dates of birth, but that could be a help.
I haven't been able to find anything new recently so at least I now have something to start working on.
Thanks again .. Sheilavee

Post by **emanday** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:53 pm

Hi sheilavee,

IGI has these births for a Helen Barrie and Robert Allardice. As most of them are after 1855, there might be a bit more information on the Statutory records.

Betsy Allardice Birth: About 1846 Kirriemuir, Angus, Scotland (This one is a submitted entry)
DUNCAN MILNE ALLARDICE Birth: 10 NOV 1856 Kirriemuir, Angus, Scotland
ROBERT ALLARDICE Birth: 08 JUL 1859 Kirriemuir, Angus, Scotland
JAMES ALLARDICE Birth: 25 JAN 1862 Kirriemuir, Angus, Scotland
CHARLES ALLARDICE Birth: 03 MAR 1865 Kirriemuir, Angus, Scotland
ISABELLA ALLARDICE Birth: 25 SEP 1866 Kirriemuir, Angus, Scotland
JESSIE MILL ALLARDICE Birth: 17 FEB 1869 Kirriemuir, Angus, Scotland
HELEN ALLARDICE Birth: 06 NOV 1873 Kirriemuir, Angus, Scotland

sheilavee · Post by **sheilavee** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:09 pm

Thanks for looking up the IGI for me.
Betsy was definitely born 12 Dec 1848, so the submitter was slightly wrong with the dates. The rest of the names fit in with the ones I had, but there was also John born 1851 and George born 1854. Betsys age when she married in June 1866 was given as 19, but it should be 17!
I have now checked the OPR images of Helen Barrie/Robert Allardice children and nothing there about being illegitimate. So presumably the parents were married.
I'll need to have another look for Helens birth and marriage!
If you think of anything else ..... !
Thanks .. sheilavee

Post by **emanday** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:14 pm

It looks to me as though they only registered the births of the children born in the years after 1855 when it became required to do so.

Post by **SarahND** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:22 pm

emanday wrote:It looks to me as though they only registered the births of the children born in the years after 1855 when it became required to do so.

So maybe they didn't bother having a regular marriage either. If they didn't care about having the children baptized, then the pressure was off and they could get by with an irregular one.
Regards,
Sarah

Post by **SarahND** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:46 pm

Got her in 1891!

30 Abbey Road, Stirling, Clackmannanshire
Mrs. Allardice, 62, head, (no birth place in the Ancestry index

)
Charles Allardice, 26, son, born Kirriemuir, Forfarshire, Railway Guard
Adam Allardice, 1, grandson, born Stirling, Stirlingshire

It doesn't get us any further ahead (except the mystery of wee Adam!), but it's nice to fill in the gaps.

All the best,
Sarah

sheilavee · Post by **sheilavee** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 2:22 pm

That's great!
She must have moved to Stirling soon after her husband died in 1887. I do know that son Charles married in Stirling in 1893. So maybe Adam is an illegitimate son of his, or else the son of one of his siblings.
This has widened my search, but still hasn't given me any clues as to her birth family.
If she had a regular marriage, would it definitely show up somewhere, or would it have depended on whether they had the money to register it?
Of course that would have been before certificates. I'm just thinking aloud here! Oh well! I'll have to think of something else!
Thanks for helping.
Kind regards
Sheilavee

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 3:38 pm

sheilavee wrote:That's great!
snipped.......................
If she had a regular marriage, would it definitely show up somewhere, or would it have depended on whether they had the money to register it?
snipped
Kind regards
Sheilavee

Hello Sheilavee,

What does it say about the date and place of marriage on the children's birth entries?

Kind regards,
Annette M