Potential Irish connection to Ronald or Andrew Baxter??

[boatsport]

My name is Ronald Baxter McGough. My given names were from the family of my gr grandmother Elizabeth Baxter (born abt 1832, in Ireland). I always thought she was born in Dublin Ireland, but finding the names Ronald Baxter in Scotland, has forced me to check more on possible ancestors from Scotland. It is possible that either Andrew Baxter (b 1783 in Scotland) or Ronald Baxter (b. 1792) emigrated to Ireland and married there.

Facts: I know Elizabeth Baxter was born in Ireland abt. 1832. I know that Elizabeth Baxter married John Clarke (born in England) in Liverpool in 1849. The next record found for Elizabeth Baxter Clarke is in New Orleans LA USA, where she had twin girls in 1863; their names were Margaret and Mary Clarke. I have extensive records for Margaret and Mary; perhaps the mother of Elizabeth was Margaret or Mary. Elizabeth, Margaret and Mary were Catholic.

Possible relationship: I found a Margaret, Eliza, and Ross Baxter (all from Ireland) in the 1841 Scotland census. I do not know if they are related to any of the Baxter's discussed here, but that Eliza was also born in 1832 in Ireland. They happened to be living with a Johnston Family from Ireland (Isabella Baxter married a Johnston of Scotland).

??? Any information on the Baxter family (above), of Ireland would be appreciated. ???

Side Note 1: Twins were found in the Ronald/Andrew Baxter family of Scotland and also in my family.
Side note 2: The names Isabella, Henrietta and Margaret are found in my Family and are also found in the Ronald/Andrew Baxter family of Scotland.
Side Note 3: Family lore says there was a "connection" to something in or at the Four Courts of Dublin prior to 1830, perhaps in the late 1700's. However, this could have been in the family of Baxter's wife.
Side note 4: FYI: My surname is from Patrick McGough, son of Patrick McGough and Anne Ronane, of Mayo Ireland.

[JustJean]

Hi Ron

Do you have a father's name and occupation from Elizabeth's marriage certificate in Liverpool? While English recordkeeping is minimal compared to Scottish this would be a solid clue for chasing up the earlier generation....or did I misunderstand and that is where the Ronald comes from??

Best wishes
Jean

[boatsport]

Jean
I do not have that information. The marriage certificate is on order, and expect to get it within 7 days from now (marriage was listed on the Apr-June 1849 BMD, Volume 20, pg 160). I believe both Ronald and Baxter came from the family of Elizabeth Baxter.
Note: The Father, of Andrew Baxter and Ronald Baxter, was named Ronald Baxter. For some reason, I believe my father and mother wanted to select my given names from the Baxter family as opposed to either the Clarke or McGough family. The given names for the grandchildren of Elizabeth (my gr grandmother) came from the Baxter and Byrd (Bird) family. Unfortunately, I was not very interested in the details when they tried to explain it 55 years ago.
Ron

[JustJean]

Hi Ronald

I'm now thinking further on the information you've provided and couldn't help but wonder where Elizabeth and John were found on census returns subsequent to their 1849 marriage. You mention that the next confirmed date for Elizabeth was the birth of twin girls in 1863 in New Orleans. There are two census records between the marriage and that record....have you found the family on them? I may as well tell you one of the reasons why I'm asking.....I very seriously doubt that Elizabeth would not have had several children before the birth of the twins. Just as you feel certain your own given name and perhaps those of Mary and Margaret are crucial links to the past....I wonder if there might be other children's names that would be just as helpful in pointing the right direction to take.

Best wishes
Jean

PS...once you have the information from the MC in hand I hope you return and continue your thread here. There are several Baxter family groupings that can be isolated in Ayrshire and Glasgow that seem to originate in Ireland. I'm hoping there will be some links we can help you establish.

[boatsport]

Jean,
Thanks for the interest and suggestions.
Unfortunately, I have searched many many hours for records on Elizabeth Baxter, and have not found any census records for John Clarke and/or Elizabeth Baxter. I was finally able to find the marriage record index (recently) with the help of a member of TalkingScot. I have found the following: Marriage index of 1849 in Liverpool, birth of Twins in N.O. La (Jan 1863), Directory 1890 in New Orleans, recorded death notice in N.O 1894 (listed as Elizabeth Baxter and as Elizabeth Baxter Clarke).
Because she was living with her daughter in 1890, I believe John Clarke died prior to 1890.
I believe part of the record problem stems from the Civil War, and the early occupation of New Orleans by Union Troups (New Orleans was one of the first cities to fall); Union Troups occupied N.O. until 1880. Another problem came from an incorrect information on the LDS site; it was very bad information and have no idea how it was obtained. It list John Clarke as being born in 1834 (clearly too young to marry in 1849), and list his death as 1890.
Your point on the number of children is well taken and now that I know of the 1849 mariage, I must renew my census search. I have tried to find them in England in 1851 and in 1861, but had no luck. I tried to find them on a ship list, but have nothing that I can verify, without a census record, etc. There are just too many John and Elizabeth Clark(e)s.
One thing is for sure: she was very much a catholic, inspite of potential links to Scotland Baxters and Marriage to John Clarke of England. Her children were raised in the Catholic church and most of their friends were Irish Catholic. Relative to other children: No one with the Clarke or Baxter name shows up as a witness in the Marriage records of her children (except the two sisters).

[JustJean]

Hi Ron

You know I can't leave this one alone don't you? Ok....I confess. I"ve been scouring the census records. I wonder if you have any idea of an occupation for John Clarke? The MC hopefully will provide some sort of help here but in the meantime.....let me throw out a possibility.

The fact that Elizabeth and John married in Liverpool might mean they married just prior to departing for the US. I assume here that you do not know the area of England John hailed from? And if they departed around 1849 and had New Orleans as a destination already in mind then they might just be found in the US in 1850. So I looked for them. But I didn't find them together....but there is a John Clark in a boarding house in Dist 3 on the 1850 census age 30 and occupation as Clerk. (Maybe he came over first to get a job?) Setting this one aside and going into 1860 there is a couple of John Clark age 40 b. London, occ: watchman, Lizabeth age 38 b. (Somehwere I can't read) Ireland, John son age 9 b. New Orleans, Janet dau age 4 b. New Orleans, Francis son age 2 b. New Orleans. They are in the household of a McWhirter family but it looks like Mrs. McWhirter was born in Manchester, England...might be a further clue??? ANy bells going off yet??? This Clark grouping would tie into being your family so nicely!!!!! But a search for a John or Janet in future years hasn't panned out.....but there is a Francis Clarke in 1870 as age 13 who is enumerated as a pupil in an asylum. So there....there is a whole ton of guesswork just to complicate your life! The name Francis though would be such a gift!! It's just unusual enough to assist in trawling earlier records. What I'd dearly love to prove for you is this is indeed your family and that Francis will be a key to connecting to other family.

I should also throw out though that iit s possible to find other John/Elizabeth England/Ireland combinations in New Orleans so it's a delicate task to prove that these are your people. I noticed that Ancestry has the births of the twins in their database but no other children listed.....but also wondered if the earlier decade records might not have been recorded as "New" Orleans....I think the 1850 and 1860 census I saw just had the district as "Orleans"....hmmmm......need to go brush up on my US history I think!!

Ok...enough food for thought for one day. But I've not give up on this one yet!

Best wishes
Jean

[JustJean]

Hi Ron

Me again......so now look at this and tell me if this might be Elizabeth as a widow in 1870....I realize the ages are a bit puffed up but 2 "M's" both age 10 and female look like twins to me......

E Clark New Orleans Ward 8, Orleans, LA abt 1828 (listed as age 42 and Widow on the original) B. Ireland White Female
T Clark New Orleans Ward 8, Orleans, LA abt 1851(listed as age 19 and Laborer) B. New Orleans, Louisiana White Male
J Clark New Orleans Ward 8, Orleans, LA abt 1856(listed as age 14 and Bar Keeper on original) B. New Orleans, Louisiana White Male
M Clark New Orleans Ward 8, Orleans, LA abt 1860 (listed as age 10 and at home on original) B. New Orleands, Louisiana White Female
M Clark New Orleans Ward 8, Orleans, LA abt 1860 (listed as age 10 and at home on original) B. New Orleans, Louisiana White Female

Very helpful enumerator chose not to spell out any first names in his district....nice guy!!!

Of course this might blow my previous theory about Francis and the family in the above post out of the water....

Best wishes
Jean

[boatsport]

Jean
This census (1870 below) is one I also keep coming back to , in my research. The twins are the wrong age and Elizabeth is too old, but if one of the children answered the questions, you can expect errors. I tried to find them in 1860 and could not find the T... and J... kids, listed with a mother and/or father.

As an interesting side story... Out of a simple fib about age, to get a job, came a complex set of relationships. See next paragraph:

You can find, in 1880 in New Orleans: Thomas O Neil 33 (police chief), Elizabeth O Neil 31 (wife), Lewis Bird 29 (boarder and worked at police station), and Mary Clark 19 (servant). Note that Mary had lied about her age to get the Servant job.
Mary is one of the children of Elizabeth and she married Louis (Lewis) Bird in 1881. Her twin sister (margaret) married an O'Neill (relative of Thomas ONeil) soon after that and prior to marrying my grandfather (McGough) in 1903.

The Byrd, McGough, O'Neil families and Children were very close and can be found living with or near each other from 1900 to 1930.
My grandfather first married Ellen Donahoe (Irish) in 1884 in New Orleans; Ellen died in 1901. My grandfather had attended the same Catholic church as the Byrd and O'Neil families, and after Ellen's death he married Margaret Clarke ONeill (widow) in 1903. My grandfather's first and only child was born in 1905, he was 63. Margaret Clarke McGough was 42. Mary died in 1901.

Note: The father of Lewis Byrd (Bird) can be found living with a Collins family in 1851, England. Rose Collins (parents were Irish) was the maiden name of Louis's mother. Lewis senior was apparently born in France but a British subject.... not sure what that meant.

Census 1860
E Clark New Orleans Ward 8, Orleans, LA abt 1828 (listed as age 42 and Widow on the original) B. Ireland White Female
T Clark New Orleans Ward 8, Orleans, LA abt 1851(listed as age 19 and Laborer) B. New Orleans, Louisiana White Male
J Clark New Orleans Ward 8, Orleans, LA abt 1856(listed as age 14 and Bar Keeper on original) B. New Orleans, Louisiana White Male
M Clark New Orleans Ward 8, Orleans, LA abt 1860 (listed as age 10 and at home on original) B. New Orleands, Louisiana White Female
M Clark New Orleans Ward 8, Orleans, LA abt 1860 (listed as age 10 and at home on original) B. New Orleans, Louisiana White Female

[boatsport]

Jean
I believe your research ideas are outstanding; and appreciate the help. You have helped me refocus my research and in many cases, encouraged me to go back to items that I discarded because of the bad information on LDS.
Let me begin to address some of your points:
Your point: The fact that Elizabeth and John married in Liverpool might mean they married just prior to departing for the US.
Answer: I believe that this is a good assumption; I tried to use this and search for emigration records, but found it difficult because of the large number of John Clark(e)s. It is even more difficult when I assume they traveled on different ships. Sure wish I knew "destination" city.
I did find the following emigration item, but age of Eliz doesn’t match, my current bias.
New Orleans Passenger Lists, 1820-1945
Name: John Clark
Arrival Date: 13 Jun 1854
Age: 23
Gender: Male
Port of Departure: Liverpool, England
Ship Name: Germanicus
Port of Arrival: New Orleans, Louisiana
National Archives' Series Number: M259_40

Additionally, they would have waited 5 years to leave Liverpool, but I can not find them in the 1851 census in Scotland or England. On this one... occupation would help; however, I do not have a clue on John's occupation. I have been hoping to get that if I could get one verifiable census report.

Sláinte
Ron

[boatsport]

Your point: “…..Setting this one aside and going into 1860 there is a couple of John Clark age 40 b. London, occ: watchman, Lizabeth age 38 b. LATRUM Ireland, John son age 9 b. New Orleans, Janet dau age 4 b. New Orleans, Francis son age 2 b. New Orleans. They are in the household of a McWhirter family…”

Answer: I also liked this possibility but dropped it because of the age of John and Lizbeth. Perhaps the marriage record will help on this…. Her two death records (below) indicate birth abt 1831, but, at this point, I really have no other record to verify that. I have to say that I have found the New Orleans death records to be generally good but also full of age errors and spelling errors. I have no death record on John.
I have high expectations for the future research, but it depends on the marriage record.

1. New Orleans, Louisiana Death Records Index, 1804-1949
Name: Elizabeth Baxter Clarke
Age: 63 yrs
Death Date: 7 Apr 1894
2. New Orleans, Louisiana Death Records Index, 1804-1949
Name: Elizabeth Baxter
Age: 63 yrs
Death Date: 7 Apr 1894