Looking for Summers/Whyte in Dundee

[Caroline]

Hi everyone,

I having trouble finding any trace of my relatives JAMES SUMMERS and JANE WHYTE before 1855 and was wondering if anyone could help.

JAMES was born abt. 1822 in Dundee to James Summers (Labourer) and Margaret Boyd, while JANE was born abt. 1831 in Dundee to William Whyte(Farmer) and Jane Duncan.( I got this info from their DCs). I can find no record of their births or parents marriages.

According to their childrens BCs they were married in August 1845, but I can find no record of their marriage.

They had at least 2 children before 1855, Margaret (1846, Dundee) and William (1852, Dundee), but I can't find them on either the 1841 or 1851 census.

From 1855 onwards I've got all the info on them, but prior to that remains a mystery!

Can anyone help?

Caroline

[JustJean]

Hi there

I thought this lot might be your missing family in 1851as found on ScotlandsPeople. Can't tell you why there is no image as surely someone was able to index it!

1851 SOMERS ANN F 26 DUNDEE DUNDEE CITY/ANGUS 282/00 097/00 013 No Image ORDER
1851 SOMERS JAMES M 28 DUNDEE DUNDEE CITY/ANGUS 282/00 097/00 013 No Image ORDER
1851 SOMERS JANE F 25 DUNDEE DUNDEE CITY/ANGUS 282/00 097/00 013 No Image ORDER
1851 SOMERS MARY F 2 DUNDEE DUNDEE CITY/ANGUS 282/00 097/00 013 No Image ORDER
1851 SOMERS MAY F 25 DUNDEE DUNDEE CITY/ANGUS 282/00 097/00 013 No Image ORDER

but upon double checking with Ancestry you find these folks were all from Ireland....and it looks like wee Mary was the daughter of Jos? James? and Ann.....which doesn't fit !!!

Name: Mary Dah Somers
Age: 2
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relationship: Daughter
Father's name: Jos
Mother's name: Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Ireland
Parish Number: 282
Civil parish: Dundee
Town: Dundee
County: Angus
Address: Scauighem
ED: 97
Page: 13
Household schedule number: 37
Line: 12
Roll: CSSCT1851_63
Household Members: Name Age
Ann Somers 26 wife
Jane Somers 25 dau?
Jos Somers 28 head
Mary Somers 25 dau?
Mary Dah Somers 2 dau
Mary Webert 23 lodger
Wm Webert 23 lodger

very confusing this!!! Any chance they are connected to you??

Best wishes
Jean

[Caroline]

very confusing this!!! Any chance they are connected to you??

Not that I know of Jean!

On all the later censuses it says James Summers and Jane Whyte were definitely born in Forfarshire and in 1851 their daughter Margaret (age 5) should be with them (she's my great great gran).

Caroline

[Jack]

Hi Caroline and Jean,
Just a passing thought....

If Jane WHYTE was born in 1831 then she was awfy young to be marrying in 1845,
and then having a wee girl (Margaret) in 1846.
Of course Jane may well have been a bit older than what she says in the censuses.

Or, was James SUMMERS previously married, and wee Margaret his daur to his first wife?
There's a big gap for children between Margaret (1846) & William (1854).

Please don't read too much into this - but i'm sure you won't!
Jack

[Caroline]

Hi Jack,

Thanks for your thoughts!

I think Jane Whytes birth date is 1831 as her age on each census and her age at death is consistent with that. I know 14 is quite young to be marrying, but a couple of my relatives also married at that age and had children at 15.

Also Jane Whyte is named as Margaret Summers mother on her marriage and death certificates and her first child was named after her.

James Summers and Jane could also have had more children between Margaret (1846) and William (1852), but they just didn't survive until 1861, which is when I have the first sighting of the family.

Maybe James did have a wife before Jane though as he was nearly 10 years older.

Anyway the search goes on !

Caroline

[Jack]

Hi Caroline,
Is this your family in 1861?
--
1861 census 424-2 Ed 11 p 20 (Dunfermline - Landward)
Elgin Colliery
James SUMMERS, 37, head, coal miner, b Dundee, Forfarshire
Jane SUMMERS, 30, wife ------------------- b Dundee, Forfarshire
Margt. SUMMERS, 15 daur, cotton winder, b Dundee, Forfarshire
William SUMMERS, 7, son, scholar, b Dundee, Forfarshire
Mary SUMMERS, 3, daur, -----------b Dunfermline, Fife
James SUMMER, 3 mos, son -------b Dunfermline, Fife
--
If yes, then William as 7 yrs seems to be born abt 1854 - this is consistent with his age of 27 in 1881.
(a small point i know)
Sadly, children often did die young, and so there could well have been more between Margaret & William.
To give credence to an 1845 marriage it would be useful to find James, Jane, and wee Margaret together in 1851.
But that's just what you're trying to find!

I know wee Margaret said her mother was Jane Whyte.
Being brought up by Jane from a young age why should she think otherwise.
Though even if she knew Jane she wasn't, was quite content to say she was.

Sorry to be casting doubt on Jane being your gr-gr gran's mother.
It was only mentioned because of the young age for Jane marrying in 1845,
and the big age gap between the children.
I dearly hope they will all be found together in 1851.

Happy searching!
Jack

[Caroline]

Hi Jack,

Yes that's them in 1861 and you're right William looks as though he was born in 1854, not 1852 as I originally posted.

Just wish I could find them in 1851, then things might be a bit clearer.

Thanks for looking

Caroline

[AnneM]

Hi

There is a 19 year old Jean Summers who is a prisoner in Dundee Gaol in 1851. Hope she is not yours. It does not give marital status but says she is a millworker and born in Dundee.

Anne

[Caroline]

There is a 19 year old Jean Summers who is a prisoner in Dundee Gaol in 1851. Hope she is not yours. It does not give marital status but says she is a millworker and born in Dundee.
Anne

Well she certainly looks like a possibility Anne.

Maybe I should now be looking for just a James Summers and daughter Margaret living together.

This finding could explain the gap in the childrens ages that Jack was referring to!

Does anybody know if there are any records for Dundee Gaol to ascertain if this is my Jean Summers?

Caroline