Manners/Campbell.....

[Research]

Can anyone help.

My gg grandfather John MANNERS born Greenock c 1841/2/3 (if his age on his son's William's birth certificate is correct).

I believe his father was John MANNERS and his mother Margaret CAMPBELL, and I believe they were married in 1841.

My problem is with Margaret. On my gg grandfathers death certificate his son John Charles MANNERS states his mother as being Catherine. I cannot locate a marriage for a Catherine CAMPBELL to John MANNERS.

I suspect her correct name is Margaret (going by the name of their first daughter Margaret Montgomery MANNERS) and it is possible her middle name was Catherine and she used that name.

I know a fair bit about my gg grandfathers life in Australia, he married Emma Hickox in 1866 in Ulludulla NSW Australia. I have not found out when he came to Australia yet, possibly 1856.

I found a listing on Renfrewshire West 1851 census microfiche 434, 11, 14, 10 for John MANNERS age 8 and Margaret aged 34. This could be possible as John's age is in the five year gap. And on his death certificate it states his age as 66 in 1909, which suggests he was born 1843. How can I confirm this without getting a birth certificate until I am sure I have the right people.

Did my gg grandfather have any brothers or sisters?

[Kathy]

I guess you already have the marriage date for John & Margaret of 06.08.1841 West Greenock.

The IGI gives lots of Manners but not for 1841 - 1843.

Have you tried SP? Manner's is not a common name and that will help to narrow the search.

Kathy

[Andy]

I reckon you may be looking in the wrong place. You have lots of middle names to play with:

Margaret Montgomery MANNERS b: 1868 in Ulladulla, New South Wales, Australia
John Charles MANNERS b: 1869 in Manning River, New South Wales, Australia
William Edward MANNERS b: 10 DEC 1871 in Taree, New South Wales, Australia
Emma MANNERS b: 1873 in Manning River, New South Wales, Australia
Archibald Campbell MANNERS b: 1876 in Wingham, New South Wales, Australia
Robert George MANNERS b: 1879 in Manning River, New South Wales, Australia
Alexander MANNERS b: 1880 in Manning River, New South Wales, Australia
Laura A. MANNERS b: 1883 in Wingham, New South Wales, Australia
Robertson MANNERS b: 1886 in Taree, New South Wales, Australia

Now that MONTGOMERY is probably VERY important. On IGI check for marriages of John Manners to surname Montgomery.

Then a children search for the couple:

1. HELEN MANNERS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 01 MAR 1829 Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland

2. GEORGE MANNERS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 11 JUN 1820 Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland

3. JOHN MANNERS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 26 OCT 1817 Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland

4. KATHERINE MANNERS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 16 DEC 1815 Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland

5. WILLIAM MANNERS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 11 JUN 1826 Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland

6. JAMES MANNERS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 10 JUN 1838 Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland

7. CHARLES MANNERS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 22 DEC 1822 Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland

8. ROBERT MANNERS - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 11 NOV 1832 Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland

These bear a striking similarity to John and Emma Hickox childrens names.

Charles was still alive in 1881.

Dwelling: No 2 Blackhall Bds
Census Place: Abbey, Renfrew, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203585 GRO Ref Volume 573 EnumDist 93 Page 9
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Charles MANNERS M 58 M Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Manufacturing Chemist
Agnes MANNERS M 54 F Milton, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Jessie MANNERS U 21 F Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Charles MANNERS U 19 M Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Assistant Chemist
John MANNERS U 17 M Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Bank Clerk
Christopher MANNERS U 15 M Paisley, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Engineer (Turner)


As was George:

Dwelling: 63 College St
Census Place: Dumbarton, Dumbarton, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203549 GRO Ref Volume 496 EnumDist 8 Page 24
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
George MANNERS M 60 M Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Joiner & Funeral Undertaker (Master Emp 1 Man
Janet MANNERS M 52 F Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Agnes MANNERS U 26 F Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Grocer Assistant
Charles MANNERS U 25 M Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Joiner & Funeral Undertaker
Isabella MANNERS U 20 F Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Grocers Assistant

And Robert:

Dwelling: 6 Campbell St
Census Place: Bonhill, Dumbarton, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203547 GRO Ref Volume 493 EnumDist 10 Page 46
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Robert MANNERS M 48 M Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Engine Smith
Mary MANNERS M 45 F Bonhill, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Agnes MANNERS U 19 F Dumbarton, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Printfield Worker
William MANNERS 5 M Bonhill, Dunbarton, Scotland
Rel: Son

Agnes was Robert's second wife the first being Catherine Sinclair. Robert started out as a Blacksmith.

[Jack]

Hi Research,

Thanks to Andy's pointers, some censuses - i've included Agnes Montgomery because of the name, and living at the same address (though a different household) as Agnes Manners.
--
1851 cens 564 (434) Ed 11 p 14 (Greenock East)
Blair's Land, Arthur St.
Sarah WILLIAMSON, head, widow, 64, attends to the domestic matters, b Ireland
John WILLIAMSON, son, u/m 23, engine boiler maker, b Greenock, RFW
Margaret MANNERS, daur, widow, 34, dressmaker, b Greenock
John MANNERS, gr-son, 8, scholar, b Greenock
Mary CAMPBELL, gr-daur, 11, scholar, b Greenock
Agnes CAMPBELL, gr-daur, 3, ----- b Greenock
William McALPINE, lodger, u/m 40, blacksmith, b Cathcart, RFW
==
1851 cens 496 (389) Ed 7 p 19 (Dumbarton)
High St.
// Agnes MANNERS, head, widow, 56, --------- b Dumbarton, DNB
Robert MANNERS, son, u/m 18, blacksmith's apprentice, b Dumbarton
// Agnes MONTGOMERY, head, MARR, 64, ------------- b Glasgow, LKS
Elizabeth MONTGOMERY, daur, u/m 26, seamstress, b Dumbarton
John HUDSON, gr-son, 14, grocer's apprentice, b Dumbarton
Ann HUDSON, gr-daur, 10, scholar, b Dumbarton
James MUNRO, lodger, u/m 28, blacksmith j/man, b Morayshire
==
1851 cens 496 (389) Ed 6 p 29 (Dumbarton)
College St.
George MANNERS, head, marr, 30, joiner or house wright, b Dumbarton, DNB
Janet MANNERS, wife, 25, --------- b Dumbarton
Janet MANNERS, daur, 3, -------- b Dumbarton
John MANNERS, son, 1, ------ b Dumbarton
==
1851 cens 573-3 (468N) Ed 4 pp 8-9 (Paisley North)
28 St James St,
John LECKIE, head, marr, 49, print cutter, b Old Kilpatrick, DNB
Margret LECKIE, wife, 50, --------- Old Kilpatrick
Arch. LECKIE, son, u/m 20, print cutter, Old Kilpatrick
William LECKIE, son, u/m 16, dyer, Old Kilpatrick
Margret LECKIE, daur, u/m 18, warehouse sewer, Old Kilpatrick
Agnes MANNERS, lodger, MARR, 24, ----------- Old Kilpatrick
[Agnes originally as visitor, but scored thru]
Don't know where her hubby Charles is.
==
Jack

[Research]

Thanks everyone

Looks like I've got my work cut out for me during my next school holidays putting all those suggestions together and matching the data I already have. I won't have much time for a while - exams in four weeks - have to study but I will keep you informed of any progress.

I thought the Montgomery name would have significance. Also the Campbell name appears right down the line, so I know it is significant.

Maybe I will just have to get the certificate and keep my fingers crossed.

[Andy]

Charles Manners married Agnes Leckie in Paisley in 1850 so all these names tie up.

Jack has found the correct Margaret and John Manners.

Sarah Williamson died in 1855 (yippeee) She was married first to Archibald Campbell then to William Williamson. Her son by first marriage, Archibald Campbell, didn't know her parents or even Maiden Name. She died at the Poorhouse but there are no extant records in Greenock.

1841 28 Rue End Street, Greenock:

WILLIAMSON Sarah F 52 Independent Ireland
WILLIAMSON Sarah F 21 Renfrewshire
WILLIAMSON George M 15 Renfrewshire
WILLIAMSON John M 10 Renfrewshire

Sarah arrived in Scotland from Ireland about 1811. By her first marriage she had:

Mary abt 1809 in Ireland, dead by 1855
Catherine abt 1813 in Greenock, dead by 1855
Archibald abt 1816 Greenock, Living 1855
Margaret abt 1822 Greenock, dead by 1855

By her second marriage she had:

Sarah abt 1826 Greenock, Living 1855
George abt 1829 Greenock, Living 1855
John abt 1831 Greenock, Living 1855

(These ages are likely to be very innaccurate)

Archibald Campbell married Mary Wilkie and had three children at least:

Archibald 1838
Mary 1840
Agnes 1847

I'll try to get up to the Watt after work to sort out this lot.

[Andy]

I didn't have a great deal of time yesterday before paternal taxi services kicked in.

Despite my best efforts I couldn't find ANYTHING on Manners, Campbell or Williamson in the Trade Directories or Birth, Marriage and Death indexes.

Closest was the death of a Greenock girl, Catherine Campbell, 18, daughter of the late Archibald, found drowned at Newark Castle, Port Glasgow, in 1827.

VERY, VERY close to the Williamson family in 1841 was an Archibald Campbell, 20, Apprentice Boilermaker and Margaret, 20, Straw Hat Maker. (rounding down occurred in 1841 so the ages could be 20 - 25)

I STRONGLY suspect these to be brother and sister. Apprentice wages normally precluded early marriage and, if married, females rarely had an occupation. (an oft missed clue)

Although there were a great many Archibald and Margaret Campbells these were the only two together in the area. We're talking whispering distance between these Campbells and Sarah Williamson and second family.

I am positive that Dunbartonshire John Manners is your man but have no proof.

The Dunbartonshire Manners originated from a VERY old English family with proven Royal links. John's brothers were all in very profitable trades and a nephew had a business in England.

Since another brother was an undertaker I felt sure that John Manners would have been buried in Dumbarton. Check out this site:

http://website.lineone.net/~gary.young/indice/index.htm

John died LITERALLY on his Honeymoon (some woman Margaret) so your John MUST have been born in April, or very early May, 1842.

As I said the family were fairly well-to-do so any Dunbartonshire papers should have a notice about John's death in Aug 1841 and/or his father 21st November 1840.

Jack was lucky to find Agnes (Montgomery) Manners in 1851, she died 26 days after the census on 26th April 1851.

John seniors brother, William, died in 1901 and sister, Catherine, in 1846.

Tho' not in contact any more, a good friend in Kenya, where I worked for 12 years from the early 1980s, was married to one of the Dunbartonshire Manners. A bit before my foray into genealogy but I have a good memory. Pat's husband died very young in a car accident, I never met him but knew the son very well. He is very probably related to you.

With a bit more work I think you'll find Buchanan and Colquhoun links from Luss (the Bonny, Bonny banks of Loch Lomond).

Best of luck in your exams.

[Research]

Thanks to all who helped me with my Manners/Campbell enquiries back in 2005. I have checked out a lot of the information provided and have received evidence that this couple certainly are my ancestors.

Now I need help in locating the above John Manners parents. John Manners (d 21 Nov 1840 Dunbarton) and Agnes Montgomery (d 26 Apr 1851 Dunbarton). I believe they were married 3 Mar 1815 Dunbarton. I'd like to know when they were born and who their parents are.

Thanks again

Research