McMichan-Mcmeekan - Caerlaverock, Dumfries

[catlady462]

This is my first post to this forum, I'm excited to have found this and hope that someone will be looking for the above family and hope to share info. The family is from Caerlaverock, Dumfries. The parents of this family are John McMichan b 1784 and his wife Mary Dixon(Dickson) b1787. Their children were all born Caerlaverock btw 1813-1828; they are Mary, Agnes, Janet/Jean, Thomas, Robert, Christina, Elizabeth, James, Susan.

Elizabeth mrd james Johnston, Christina mrd William Sturgeon, Thomas mrd Mary Hamilton. Mary and Agnes seem never to be officially married but the census shows both to have children out of wedlock. Agnes has 2 daughters: Mary Wright b 1850 and Susan Crombie b 1860; and Mary has child Elizabeth Scott b 1841. I do know that Mary Wright mrd Robert Grierson and Susan Crombie mrd Richard Merrick. I do not know what happened to Elizabeth Scott. Any help on any of these would be appreciated.

Now, my most challenging issue...the daugher Janet/Jean who is my ancestor, also has a child before marriage in 1839. The birth record for this child lists her as Agnes, illigitimate daughter of Jean McMichan, the grandfather John McMichan is listed as sponser. The most interesting thing for me is a small note in the margin that states "Farrish, the reputed father denies". This child Agnes is found on both the 1841 and 1851 listed as Agnes Farrish/Parrish and living with the grandfather in 41 and the Aunt Agnes in 51. My ancestor Jean went to England and is there in 1841, where she marries shortly thereafter and goes to Staffordshire. The child Agnes is never found with her mother in England. I would love to find out what happened to her, did she marry? who? is there any family?

I'm looking forward to sharing and info on this family.

[emanday]

Hi catlady462,

A warm welcome to Talking Scot

Your family isn't one I am personally researching (yet - but I keep finding new names ), but I hope someone will be along to help you out.

It's interesting that wee Agnes, while her father Farrish is only "reputed" on her birth entry, she is using his name by the 1841 census. You have to wonder if he acknowledged her later and there might be a Kirk Session mention of it somewhere.

Have you tried "following" Agnes to the 1861 census?

You might be interested in an Agnes Farish who died 1901 with the other name given as Oram (possibly her husband) aged 61 in Dumfries. It can be found on SP. Note the spelling.

[JustJean]

Hi Ruth

Wow...I feel like we've met before ! May as well tell you that back in February I read your post on RC entitled: McMichan(McMeekan)-Dickson of Carlaverock, Dumfries. It caught my eye for the McMeekin surname as that is one that I'm after...but sadly no links to Dumfries with mine so far. Anyhow....when I read the body of your message it contained a reference to the Sturgeon surname which really caught my eye as that one is near and dear to my heart Sadly I can't connect to the one that married into your tree but mine were in Ayrshire so not too far away. So bad news is that I don't think we have a family connection

So then I started looking for your missing Agnes. But I never found her after 1851 so that's why I never made a reply to your posts before!

Now just a short while ago I was checking things out over on the Family Tree Forum and I'll be darned but I read the post you just made there and it jogged my memory that it all sounded familiar. Before I could go back and check my notes I decided to check in on TS and here you are again!! So Hi....nice to finally meet you!!

Now let me take the proper time to check my notes and see if anything interesting comes out. I know from your earlier RC post I didn't realize that your ancestor ended up in England. Matter of fact I had looked a bit for her in Scotland hoping to find Agnes reunited with her. Now that I think I've got the full story from all the forums I'm hoping that something can be uncovered for you. Anyhow....I'll have a look once again.

Best wishes
Jean

[SarahND]

Hi Ruth,
I have a few people to throw your way... see if any sound right

Could this be Agnes in 1861?

1861
19 Market Street, Dumfries, Dumfriesshire
James Shaw, 62, head, born Dumfries, Teacher of Music
Jane Shaw, 56, wife, born Troqueer, Teacher of Music
Agnes Farries, 20, born Dumfries, Domestic Servant

No Agnes Oram to be found in 1871, but there is an Agnes Douglas, who was born in Caerlaverock... Can't find her marriage though...

1871
71 English St (close), Dumfries Burgh
John Douglas, 41, head, born Dumfries, Spirit Merchant
Agnes Douglas, 33, wife, born Caerlaverock, Dumfriesshire
Reubina Douglas, 4, daughter, born Dumfries
Mary A Douglas, 2, daughter, born Dumfries
Thomas I Douglas, 5 Mo, son, born Houegles, Kirkcudbrightshire
Annie McGuffie, 17, daughter(?!), born Kirkmichael, Dumfriesshire, General Servant
Elizabeth McClure, 13, servant, born Dumfries, Nurse


There is an Agnes Farish who married in Middlebie, Dumfries in 1866, but the male surname is neither or*m (or even *r*) nor d*g*l*s* I tried feeding in the surnames of all the husbands of all the Agneses in Dumfries in 1871 who were born in about the right year and still didn't hit upon the right one.

So... leave that for a moment. There is an Agnes Oram in 1891, who was born in Dumfries. If it's her, she shaved a few years off her age:

54 St Michael St, Dumfries
William Oram, 60, born Cramond, Fife, Horse Breaker
Agnes Oram, 47, wife, born Dumfries
Christina Oram, 20, daur, born Dumfries, Woolen Weaver
Hugh Oram, 18, son, born Dumfries, Woolen Warper

But they don't seem to be anywhere in 1871, although she should be in Dumfries giving birth to Christina. However, there is this odd entry:

1871
68 St Michael St, Dumfries Burgh
Agnes Fruit, 28, head, born Dumfries, Washerwoman
Susie Oscar, 8, daughter, born Dumfries, Scholar
Christina Oran, 2, daughter, born Dumfries

Could Agnes Fruit be ancestry's OCR index version of Farish? If so, it looks like she has had a couple of illegitimate children and perhaps the father of Christina eventually marries her, or they live together anyway.

Well, that's my attempt! Maybe Jean will find you something more plausible!
All the best,
Sarah

[catlady462]

Mary, Jean, Sarah, Thanks to all of you for the quick replies, wow. I have a bit of checking to do on this new info. Thanks to each of you.

Gee, Jean sounds like you have gotten around following my post, tee hee.
Any bit of help is greatly appreciated. I have not run into the Orem or Douglas names before, so I will do some checking on those to see what I might be able to turn up.

So I have a question for you all, was it an accepted practice for young Scottish lassies to have children without benefit of marriage? Since finding the birth info with the "margin note" I have wondered if my Jean left Scotland because he would not marry her or having accused him, things were not going right for her. Since the child was so young I have guessed that her family kept the child. When my Jean is married in Liverpool in May 1845 to Samuel Mollart, she has her first child in Sept 1845...and by 1851 they are back in Staffordshire where Samuel was from and they remain there until there deaths. They have severa; more children but Agnes never shows up. Once I found her birth record I was hooked....I just had to find her.

Would a marriage record for any of these Agnes' possibly give the mothers name?

Thanks for all you help and suggestions. Sure glad I came on board!

Ruth

[catlady462]

Jean,
Very interesting that you also have Sturgeons in your tree. I know that Christina McMichan was married to William Sturgeon, he was a butcher born about 1820, Dumfries. According to his death certificate which states: parents: William (stroked out) Moffat Sturgeon, butcher deceased and Janet Sturgeon MS Bryan deceased (this was 1868)

I have not been able to pin point this William Sturgeons parents, the William/Moffat and Janet listed above.

William and Christian McMichan Sturgeon have 7 children: William, James,
Jannet, John, Margaret, Moffat and Joseph. I know nothing about any of the children.

If any of this fit any of your Sturgeon's I'd be happy to share what I can.

Thanks
Ruth

[SarahND]

Hi Ruth,

So I have a question for you all, was it an accepted practice for young Scottish lassies to have children without benefit of marriage?

Not accepted, in terms of the church, but certainly very common-- at some times and in some places more than others.

Regards,
Sarah

[catlady462]

Sarah,
I haven't done a whole lot of research into this but it was pretty obvious that it was going on in this family.

Why would children be given the name of the "unwed" father?

I wondered if my Agnes continued to go by the Farish name or called herself McMichan. The children of the other sisters are listed on all the census with the surname of the fathers, yet later I have found them listed as McMichan, one calls herself "Mary Wright McMichan" Susan Crombie eventually uses Susan McMichan.

So confusing for us record seekers.

Thanks for your insight. I appreciate it.

Ruth

[JustJean]

Hi Ruth

First off....my Sturgeons were in and around Dailly and southern Ayrshire from about 1840 forward. They hailed from County Down but I honestly think originally they may have hailed from lowland Scotland. So far we're stuck at early 1800's in NI. I'll have a look through my "unknown" pile of certificates and see if any might fit your line.

Now for Agnes Farish. The margin note really makes all the difference with this one! Most OPR christening entries are standard format and so is Agnes. Registered with her mum's MN because she was illegimate. But because the reputed father note is made then you have her located with certainty with her grandparents on the 1841 census. The fact that they called her by Farish is a strong testament to what they must have believed was truth no matter what Mr Farish had to say about it Ok...now in 1851 Agnes is again easily found with remants of the same household so that it is certain to be the same girl. By 1861 it gets tricky. Agnes would have been of an age to easily been working outside the home as a domestic and living with the family that employs her. When this occurs the certainty of identification diminishes to near zero. The record that Sarah found very well could be her. THere is no compelling reason to think otherwise but also none that will confirm it.

Becasue both Mary and Sarah have done so much of the legwork for you they've made it quite a breeze to come in see what might fit together.

In 1871 the record of Agnes Fruit is a classic Ancestry dud

1871
68 St Michael St, Dumfries Burgh
Agnes Fruit, 28, head, born Dumfries, Washerwoman
Susie Oscar, 8, daughter, born Dumfries, Scholar
Christina Oran, 2, daughter, born Dumfries

A view of the 1871 digitized original as found on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk will clearly tell you that Agnes is named Farish and her daughter Susie Oscar is really a Jessie Oram and Christina is actually correct (except she's an Oram not an Oran)!!

Soooooo.....a quick search for the Oram births comes up with zilch but a quick search for the births under Farish tells us that their mum is Agnes and they are illegitimate. Sadly no margin notations on these ones......but calling them Oram sure looks like a game we've played before

Now we have to ask ourselves....hmmmm....how will we know if this is the right Agnes? Well.....if we found her DC with parents we'd know.....or if we found a MC for her with parents named we'd know. It doesn't look good that Agnes will find a husband but darned if William Oram doesn't finally pop the question and they wed in 1884!! No way yet of being certain this is the same fellow who shared his name with Agnes girls but....move alongl.....on the MC Agnes gives her name as Farish. And for a father it states..... John Farish grain? dealer reputed father deceased. Yet for a mother she names Mary Ann McKen (looke like to me) domestic servant deceased.

So now we have a new line of questions.....If this is your Agnes the father's info looks very believeable. What are the odds a Mr. Farish in Dumfries sired another daughter called Agnes just about the time of the one we're researching....and for her to use the term reputed father...well...like I said earlier...we've played this game before. But the really hard question....why a mother called Mary Ann? I'm going on a limb here.....just maybe she considered her grandmother to be her mother. The woman would have been the mother figure to her during her growing years...and her name was Mary on the census wasn't it? The McKen....perhaps just a poor spelling of McMichan/McMeekan?

Sadly the second opportunity to confirm parents for Agnes fails as the informant on the DC of the Agnes Oram in Dumfries doesn't know her parents names. It is a son in law though and with his surname you can easily find a MC for Christina to him in 1893 Dumfries. Christina names her parents as William Oram and Agnes Oram mn Farish....no reputed fathers listed so looking even better that William was her biological father. Matterof fact this elusive William the horse breaker is not confirmed yet on many of the census records.....but he's there in Dumfries in 1875 when the wee son registered by Agnes in 1874 as Charles Ferish dies. Matter of fact the DC shows that his name is Charles Oram and William himself is the informant and signs the register. About time he made an appearance at the registrars office

Now if we could only be 100% certain this is your Agnes. I'm leaning that way but I still haven't fallen yet!

Oh...btw.....William Oram's brother is the Charles found living in 1871 Dumfries and the Elizabeth in the same household looks to be William's mum. A gander at the birthplaces of them lets you see (if they are accurate) that they family moved around a bit!

That's the best I've been able to pull out of the hat so far.....

Best wishes
Jean

[Russell]

Jean

You never fail to amaze me.

Brilliant

Russell