Searching for John McPherson, brother of Flora.

Jazminsdaddy · Post by **Jazminsdaddy** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:12 am

First Post. I hope I can find some answers.

My grandmother is over 90 and she would like to find out what happened to her father before she dies. I have no clue how to go about this and she really doesn't know much about her father.

Here is what we know. His name was John McPherson and he had a sister named Flora. He came to Trinidad from Scotland sometime before 1913 to run an estate. He had two children with a local woman: my gran and her sister. He was originally from Glasgow.

He was called back to Scotland to fight in WW1. His last words to his children who were almost babies were "Don't cry, I'll be back." That is the last time they ever saw him or heard from him.

Would it be possible to find out about someone with such little information?

I would love to find this out for my Grandmother.

Thanks for any help!

Post by **AndrewP** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:44 am

Hi Jazminsdaddy,

Welcome to TalkingScot.

There are two websites that list those who died in the wars.

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission:
http://www.cwgc.org/

The Scottish National War Memorial:
http://www.snwm.org

Unfortunately, both give many possibilities when searching for John McPherson (also need to consider MacPherson). To help narrow down the search, do you know where in Scotland he was born, and when. Also, did he have a middle name?

Or, he may have survived the war. If he died in Scotland, his death certificate will be available on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk (a pay per view site), but once more there will be too many possible results, so the year of birth and any middle names would help to narrow down the search.

Also, to find his birth certificate on the ScotlandsPeople website, there would be too many possible results to check them and be sure that you have found the right one. But if you know where or when he was born, or if he had a middle name, that would help to narrow the search down.

If you have any of these clues, please post them here.

All the best,

AndrewP

Post by **SarahND** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:18 am

Hi Jazminsdaddy,
Welcome to Talking Scot

Here are the families in Lanark who have children Flora and John in 1891... Well, it's a start

Do you have any idea whether Flora was older or younger than John?

Holmhead Rd Balgowan, Cathcart, Renfrewshire
John Macpherson, 49, head, born Milnathort, Kinross-shire, Prapery (?!)Warehouseman
Bessie MacPherson, 49, wife, born Markinch, Fifeshire
Annie MacPherson, 21, daur, born Glasgow
Flora MacPherson, 16, daur, born Glasgow, Scholar
John MacPherson, 14, son, born Glasgow, Scholar

Burnside St 3 Church Place, Kilmalcolm, Renfrew
Alexander McPherson, 48, born Skye, Invernessshire, Gas Stoker
Catherine McPherson, 46, wife, born Skey, Invernessshire
John McPherson, 13, son, born Johnstone, Renfrewshire, Scholar
Flora McPherson, 12, daur, born Partick, Lanarkshire, Scholar
Euphemia, 8, daur, born Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire, Scholar
Norman Bruce, 50, lodger, born Skey, Inverness Shire, general labourer
William Campbell, 47, lodger, born Skey, Inverness Shire, general labourer

All the best,
Sarah

Edit: Hmmm I did the search asking for those in Lanark... but I see that the Ancestry search function is still messed up and is giving me results with any mention of Lanark in them

Oh well, it's close enough!

DavidWW · Post by **DavidWW** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:56 am

Even if one of these John's is the right person, it still going to a problem.

Taking the Cathcart family John, assuming that he survived WWI, and searching on ScotlandsPeople for a the death of a John born in 1877 +/- 2 gives 47 possibilities across Scotland, 13 of which are in Glasgow.

What we really need is some other linking info, apart from his sister's name.

It might also help to know his birthday, - while the year would be ideal, the day and month would suffice.

David

grannysrock · Post by **grannysrock** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 2:39 pm

Hi Jazminsdaddy,
On www.findmypast.com, scanned copies UK outbound passenger lists are being added. They currently have from 1890-1909 . Anyway on their index there's a 26 year-old J McPherson going to Trinidad in 1906 - a possibility ?
I must admit the scans I have looked at in this time period haven't given up much in terms of extra information - but you never know !

I hope you find him

Sally

Jazminsdaddy · Post by **Jazminsdaddy** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 5:57 pm

Wow, thanks everyone for your help. I really really appreciate it.

grannysrock: I checked out the passenger manifest and his occupation matches my Great Grandfather. I can't imagine there were too many J. McPherson's travelling to Trinidad to be overseers. The age is approx. right as well. It doesn't say too much else but it is a start and my grandmother was very excited to hear the news.

Jazminsdaddy · Post by **Jazminsdaddy** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:32 pm

SarahND wrote:Hi Jazminsdaddy,
Welcome to Talking Scot

Here are the families in Lanark who have children Flora and John in 1891... Well, it's a start Do you have any idea whether Flora was older or younger than John?

Holmhead Rd Balgowan, Cathcart, Renfrewshire
John Macpherson, 49, head, born Milnathort, Kinross-shire, Prapery (?!)Warehouseman
Bessie MacPherson, 49, wife, born Markinch, Fifeshire
Annie MacPherson, 21, daur, born Glasgow
Flora MacPherson, 16, daur, born Glasgow, Scholar
John MacPherson, 14, son, born Glasgow, Scholar

Burnside St 3 Church Place, Kilmalcolm, Renfrew
Alexander McPherson, 48, born Skye, Invernessshire, Gas Stoker
Catherine McPherson, 46, wife, born Skey, Invernessshire
John McPherson, 13, son, born Johnstone, Renfrewshire, Scholar
Flora McPherson, 12, daur, born Partick, Lanarkshire, Scholar
Euphemia, 8, daur, born Kilmalcolm, Renfrewshire, Scholar
Norman Bruce, 50, lodger, born Skey, Inverness Shire, general labourer
William Campbell, 47, lodger, born Skey, Inverness Shire, general labourer

All the best,
Sarah

Edit: Hmmm I did the search asking for those in Lanark... but I see that the Ancestry search function is still messed up and is giving me results with any mention of Lanark in them Oh well, it's close enough!

Can I ask where you found that info?

Post by **SarahND** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:43 pm

Jazminsdaddy wrote:Can I ask where you found that info?

Of course!

I got it from the 1891 Scotland Census index on Ancestry.com (a paid site, but I have a subscription). It is an index only, and sometimes the interpretation of the handwriting is a bit fanciful and there are spelling errors, but it is useful for searching. If you find a census record and want to see the actual image, you will have to get it from Scotlands People (link at the top of this page).

That said, it looks like you need a John born about 1880? And do you have any idea if Flora was older or younger than John?

I certainly sympathize with this search... I started out in genealogy by trying to find out about my mother's father. At age 85, she was finally able to see his photo... Well worth the search!

All the best,
Sarah

Post by **SarahND** » Sat Mar 31, 2007 7:34 pm

Hi again,
On the previous search I looked for Flora, it being a less common name than John, but a search for John, born in Lanarkshire, gives two more who are not ruled out immediately, i.e., they have no obvious sister Flora, but they are not with their families, so a Flora could exist... Not too hopeful, but just to have everyone out on the table. This time I set his birth date at 1880 +/-2 to fit with the passenger manifest:

85 Denmark St, Maryhill, Barony, Lanarkshire

John Wood, 32, head, born Paisley, Renfrewshire, Paper Ruler
Jane Wood, 28, wife, born Paisley, Renfrewshire
Elizabeth Wood, 7, daur, born Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scholar
John Wood, 5, son, born Paisley, Renfrewshire, Scholar
Janet Wood, 3, daur, born Paisley, Renfrewshire
John MacPherson, 11, Nephew, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Scholar

There's also this one in the Mossbank Industrial School, Millerston, Glasgow Barony, Lanarkshire
John McPherson, 11, born Lanarkshire, Glasgow, Scholar

DavidWW is right, of course, that we need more information about him to be able to be sure we have the right one. For example, he may not have actually been born in Glasgow, but only moved there later, or only sailed from there, etc. I take it there are no papers in your granny's possession that might add a clue or two? No letters from Flora? A married name for her? Well, I'm grabbing at straws here

Regards,
Sarah

DavidWW · Post by **DavidWW** » Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:14 pm

We're getting closer !!........

Assuming that this is indeed the man in 1906, that gives us a reasonable fix on his age.

What was the occupation?, - as this might be reflected in a census or other record in Scotland? What's the full entry on this shipping record?

That age means that he was 31/32 at the outbreak of WWI in 1914, rising to 38/39 in 1918.

The only way that he could have been "called back to Scotland to fight in WWI" would have been if he had previously served with the army, and was in The Army Reserve, - quite possible, given his age. Army rules required that an emigrant stayed in contact with the army, and provided his overseas address. Some did, some didn't.

There is another possibility, but just a small chance, that he was called up in 1917 or 1918, when the war had progressed to the extent that men of his age were being called up under the conscription laws in force, but that would mean that the UK authorities would need to have known where to find him in Trinidad.

More likely that, I'd suggest, if he wasn't in the Reserve, is the possibility that he felt a moral compulsion to return to Scotland and join the armed services.

Given what we know of the situation do far, I strongly suspect, very sadly, that the reason that he never remade contact was that he was killed in WWI.

If he hadn't married the mother of his two children in Trinidad, she wouldn't qualify to be shown on his army papers as his next-of-kin, never mind that army procedures became of necessity comparitively lax during WWI, compared to pre-war procedures, i.e. there's no guarantee that his next-of-kin details were ever recorded (a substantial proportion of the Commonwealth Graves Commission records show no details on next-of-kin, - that doesn't mean that there weren't any, but demonstrates that the info wasn't always easily available or even existed).

Since we now know his likely age, the number of men shown on the Commonwealth Graves Commission site who come into question is very much lower since most casualties were in their 20s or younger; for those with a likely age shown, ca. 7 for McPHERSON, and ca. 3 for MacPHERSON. There's also a good number of "Unknowns" in the age column, but it would be expected that the majority of these could also be ruled out on the grounds of age.

As yet I haven't looked for exact age matches, just matches for the correct range of ages in 1914 to 1919, - working on the basis of an exact age would reduce the number further, but that always assumes that his age was correctly recorded.

Nor have I had a look at any recorded next-of-kin info and checked to see if such info links back to parents who also had a child by the name of Flora !!

If he was a WWI casualty then I'd suspect that he was killed in action, or wounded so severely, then dying of those wounds before he could write a letter to Trinidad.

One source which could well be worth a look is the WWI Soldiers' Wills database held by National Archives of Scotland in Edinburgh, as it's not out of the question that the short will form in his paybook mentioned his wife and children.

Normally contact would have followed with them as next-of-kin, but that assumes that his paybook survived, and that sufficient info was given, i.e. not just the names, but the address............ quite often, the wording is along the lines of "...I leave all my worldly goods to my wife, Jean......", i.e. no address or other details..............

As I started off by writing "We're getting closer !!........".

I can't emphasize too much how important it is that we are given any and all details, however insignificant that they appear to be, and however much the information is not based on hard fact, but vague memories. Anything and everything in circumstances such as this, however vague, can turn out to be the jigsaw piece that allows the picture to be completed.

OK, maybe I'm being pessimistic in terms of a possible death in WWI, but the casualty rates were frighteningly high, and the story of John having said to his wee wains before he left "Don't cry, I'll be back" rings so true, that I can only imagine that the reason that he never did so were that he couldn't!.

I can't emphasize too much how powerful is the search carried out by SarahND on the basis of looking for families where there are both a John and a Flora.

In other words, there's lots of matching families with a John, and probably not many less with a Flora, but there will be surprisingly few with both a John and a Flora

My only concern here would be that, if Flora was his elder sister, then, in 1891, she may already have left home, and, for instance, be "in service" soemwhere.

David