Who is good at brick walls?

[Grendlsmother]

My great-grandmother, Jeannie has always been a brick wall because of all the various surnames and birthplaces she used . On her marriage certificate with my gxgrandfather, Peter McCormick, she gives her name as Jane Kerr Brown.
Children 1-4 are registered with mother’s maiden name as Kerr Brown; for five and six it is given as Logan, seven, eight and nine given as Thomson and ten as Kerr.
She gives her place of birth as 1881 - New Monkland; 1891 - Coatbridge; 1901 - Sanquhar.

She gave me a good run for my money (lots of it). However, last year, looking through my old certificates I came across her husband’s death cert. which was one of the first certificates I ever got. The “reporter” was James Devoy, brother-in-law. When I first found this certificate, I didn’t even know if Peter had any sisters, but had subsequently found who his sisters were. However, I knew that none of them was married to a James Devoy. So I had to assume that it was the husband of a sisters-in-law, ie Jeannie’s sister. This set me off - I found the marriage - in Coylton, of James Devoy and Isabella Brown.
Anyway, having found a sister made the process of eliminating Browns on the 1861 census easier and I found the family living in Kirkconnel-by Sanquhar.

32 Craig end (1861)
James Brown Head Marr. 50 Labourer Morton, Dumfries
James Brown Son Unm 14 Kirkconnel, Dumfries
Jane Brown Dau Unm 6 Sanquhar, Dumfries
Isabella Brown Dau Unm 3 New Cumnock, Ayrshire

It turns out that James Brown and Mary Kerr married in 1860 in Kirkconnel - he was a widower and she is a spinster (where was Mary on census night?). James gives his parents as Robert Brown and Mary Cowan. Mary’s are William Kerr and Isabella Lockie. (who are also named on her death cert in 1875).

Presumably Jane (Jeannie) and Isabella were illegitimate, but were their parents really James Brown and Mary Kerr. Neither of them appears to have been registered . I cannot find any birth registration for either of them under Kerr or Brown, or even Scott, Aitken or Currie. Thomson or Logan. Even if Jane had been born in 1854, Isabella at least should have been registered. Mary (Goodwin) Brown did not die until 1859, but of course could not have been Jeannie & Isabella’s mother because of her age.
Jeannie’s marriage cert gives her parents as James Brown and Mary Kerr. Isabella’s as James Brown and Mary Cowan (presumably she misunderstood the question “mother’s name”.

Jeannie’s death cert gives her parents as “………Kerr (deceased) and …..Kerr / Ms …....(deceased)
Isabella’s give Mary Kerr afterwards married to James Brown (deceased) - this would seem to imply illegitimacy - but why was her birth not registered.

Looking for clues I then searched the 1851 census, which gave a very mixed household:

James Brown Head Marr 44 Railway Labourer Morton, Dumfries
James Brown Stepson Unm 3 Kirkconnel
Mary Brown Wife Marr 55 Glasgow
Margaret Goodwin sister-in-law 66 (unmarried) Glasgow
Ratchel Scott Step-daughter 23 (unmarried) Kirkconnel
Daniel Aitken Step-son 10 months Tarbolton, Ayr

Further investigation showed that Mary (Goodwin) Brown has previously been married to a Thomas Scott. The parents of James Brown (age 3) were James Brown and Ratchel Scott (oh dear!).

The parents of Daniel Aitken were Janet Currie and Daniel Aitkin - don’t know who they were and why they had left their baby with James Brown.

Sorry to go on at such length, but I wanted to give as much info as possible. It has taken nearly four years searching to get to this point and any ideas for finding birth registrations for these two (Jeannie & Isabella) would be welcomed. Incidentally, James Brown & Mary Kerr had another two children after their marriage both born New Cumnock and properly registered.

[AnneM]

Hi there

You have me totally baffled. Not only does Jeannie change birthplace she also changes maiden name! I have no doubt these are the same person but can find no enlightenment.

Hope some cleverer person has better luck!!

Anne

[emanday]

Grendlsmother,

I'm totally foxed by this one. However, I have some (for that read several ) similar brick walls! Why couldn't folk stick with the facts back then

Anne,

You have no idea how relieved I am that I'm not the only one!

It's nearly as difficult to work out as two daughters of one of my rellies. I can't find their births because they both consistently fabricated (lied) about their ages and their mother was just as vague about her age, where she was born and who and when she married AND which children belonged to whom!

[JustJean]

Hi there

This is a tough one to be sure I have to agree with you that a BC for your grannie is not to be found. As for sis Isabella...I can't explain it! It really should be there. I agree that the births are very very likely to have been illegitimate.....but if they were then when registered they really should be under the mum's mn which by all my reckoning is KERR. They all seem to be Church of Scotland too.

Ok...well....lacking the finding of those records i can tell you a bit more about Mary KERR though. Unless you've already got all this...but you didn't mention it so here goes....

Mary gives her parents names on her MC at William Kerr and Isabella Lockie and both are living in 1860. Next stop is to run a parent search on the IGI based on those names....and you only pick up one hit and then it's a submission but will be crucial to linking to the right family.....the name of the child is John KERR and it states that he married Janet HARPER in 1871 . A followup on SP proves this is very accurate...but also proves that he was a 34 year old widower when he wed.

.......however....if we persevere and check the BIVRI then we pick up one more birth to William and Isabella and this one is a son named James KERR. He's born 27 Jun 1836 in Durisdeer Dumfries and is mum's mn is LOCKIE.

Ok then...we have what we think is the right couple and we have two sons to them.

Then a search for the DC of Isabella KERR mn LOCKIE is easily found in 1871 right in Sanquhar and the informant is son John.

So now return to the BIVRI and run a further search on William KERR and Isabella no surname and WOW there are quite a few!! But there is a whole stream of them in Dumfries and the mum's mn is LOCKHART. So now take time to say LOCKIE and LOCKHART 10 times fast and see if you can make yourself believe it might be the same person. Once you've cleared that hurdle you're in the homestretch. Just to be daring throw those names into a new parent search on the IGI and Ill be darned but there is a marriage now for John KERR and Martha TURNBULL in Durisdeer in 1858. So you think to yourself..hmmmm....John was a widower in 1871 and oh heck just go run a Death search on Martha KERR mn TURNBULL and narrow it to 1858 to 1871 and limit it to Dumfries and place your bets. We have a winner folks! There is our John....signing his name with that same X no less So John thought is mum was Isabella LOCKIE in one place and ISABELLA LOCKHART in another!

Now go back and scan the names on the IGI and find there is a Mary....and then find them on the 1851 census and you get this:

1851 Scotland Census
about William Kerr
Name: William Kerr
Age: 50
Estimated birth year: abt 1801
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name: Isabella
Gender: Male
Where born: Durrisdeer, Dumfries
Parish Number: 848
Civil parish: Sanquhar
County: Dumfriesshire
Address: Matthewsfolly
Occupation: Ag Lab
ED: 3
Page: 2 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 4
Line: 1
Roll: CSSCT1851_210
Household Members: Name Age
Isabella Kerr 46
James Kerr 14
Jean Kerr 23
John Kerr 16
Mary Kerr 20
William Kerr 50
William Kerr 3
Wilson under 1 Mo


and then in 1861 you find this.....but sadly no Mary Brown visiting home:

1861 Scotland Census
about Isabella Kerr
Name: Isabella Kerr
Age: 64
Estimated birth year: abt 1797
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Moffat, Dumfriesshire
Registration Number: 848
Registration district: Sanquhar
Civil parish: Sanquhar
Town: Sanquhar
County: Dumfriesshire
Address: Main Street
ED: 2
Page: 12 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 77
Line: 6
Roll: CSSCT1861_145
Household Members: Name Age
Hugh Cowan 2
Isabella Kerr 64
Janet Kerr 43
Janet Kerr 8
Margaret Kerr 9
William Kerr 13

So a bit more to go on. I haven't listed all the births from the IGI but you can easily find them......here is the listing from the BIVRI...

KERR, Jean Bir 1821 Scot Dumf Durisd
Fa: William KERR
Mo: Isabella LOCKHART
KERR, Janet Bir 1823 Scot Dumf Durisd
Fa: William KERR
Mo: Isabella LOCKHART
KERR, Margaret Bir 1825 Scot Dumf Durisd
Fa: William KERR
Mo: Isabella LOCKHART
KERR, Mary Bir 1828 Scot Dumf Durisd
Fa: William KERR
Mo: Isabel LOCKHART
KERR, Grizzel Rae Bir 1831 Scot Dumf Durisd
Fa: William KERR
Mo: Isabel LOCKHART
KERR, John Bir 1834 Scot Dumf Durisd
Fa: William KERR
Mo: Isabel LOCKHART
KERR, Isabel Bir 1839 Scot Dumf Sanquh
Fa: William KERR
Mo: Isabel LOCKHART

and then don't forget that James slides in there nicely born in 1836.

There is still a ton of work to do on them. ALOT of births going on that don't seem to be recorded or are illegitimate.

Best wishes
Jean

[emanday]

Hats off to you Jean!

That was a clever bit of deduction. Not related to the venerable Mr Holmes, by any chance

[DavidWW]

Hats off to you Jean!

That was a clever bit of deduction. Not related to the venerable Mr Holmes, by any chance

I thought that everyone already knew that Jean's middle name is "Holmes"

David

[Grendlsmother]

Thanks to everyone who replied, especially Jean for taking all that time and trouble.

I did have the info on Mary's (Kerr) parents & her siblings but thought if my posting was any longer folk would get sick of wading through it all. Mary definitely states Lockie on her marriage cert. and it is also Lockie on her death cert. but I had also worked out the Lockhart connection. Mary gives Durisdeer as her birthplace and the family had obviously moved to Sanquhar in time for her to get to know James Brown.

I have also tried to find who was the Wilson grandchild on the '51 census.
There seems to be a lot of children shuffled around between various families.

The Hugh Cowan entry is interesting - Cowan was the name of James Brown's mother.

I have tried to establish marriages for just about everyone who Jean has listed to find if any died young and left two orphaned girls. But both girls seemed to think that Mary Kerr was their mother and named daughters after her. And Isabella was Mary Kerr's mother's name and her sister Isabella witnessed her marriage.

I have all sorts of red herrings too numerous to list here - was there a Rae connection, could Currie be a corruption of Kerr, where do Thomson and Logan come into the picture.

I also found this a few months ago, which is a possibility - but cannot connect it up to the Kerrs & Browns in Sanquhar.

JANET KERR - International Genealogical Index - British Isles
Gender: Female Birth: 25 MAR 1856 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland

ISABELLA KERR - International Genealogical Index - British Isles
Gender: Female Birth: 07 AUG 1858 Old Monkland, Lanark, Scotland

Parents Andrew Kerr and Isabella Brown.

Cannot find a marriage for them (maybe they were not “properly” married. No other children listed either. The birth certificates do not give any clues.

Guess I'll just have to keep trying - but of course any further suggestions or ideas are welcomed.

Grendlsmom

[emanday]

I can't find a possible marriage for them either and I hardly think they waited for over 20 years to have a family, so this couple not really viable prospects...

ANDREW KERR and ISABELLA BROWN - Marriage: 14 APR 1833 Barony, Lanark

[Grendlsmother]

I should have added that, annoyingly, the birth certs do not give a date or place of marriage, but neither do any of the others on the same pages. I think the Old Monkland registrar should have been given a good telling off!

This is the only instance of Kerr or Brown with Janes (Janets/Jeans) and Isabellas as sisters and born in the appropriate years. It seems a co-incidence that it was Old Monkland as Jeannie gives this as her place of birth on the '81 census. But of course, '61 and '01 give Sanquhar, and Isabella consistently says New Cumnock.

[AndrewP]

I should have added that, annoyingly, the birth certs do not give a date or place of marriage, but neither do any of the others on the same pages. I think the Old Monkland registrar should have been given a good telling off!

Hi Grendlsmother,

It was not that the registrar in Old Monkland was lacking in the content of his registers. The parents' marriage place and date were not a requirement on the birth registers of 1856 to 1860.

All the best,

AndrewP