Opinion please of some ancestor finds

[StewL]

I have being doing a bit of searching on the BVRI, after getting some leads from a distant cousin who has been doing this family history caper for a good twenty years or more. We linked up through Genes, and finally I managed to be able to view the full trees (a long story) which revealed more information than I was aware of from her emails.

I knew we were linked through a Robert Philip/Phillips as she emailed me information on her line. And her link “Jane Bruce Phillips” clinched it.

After I viewed her tree, I found she had links further back in the line, ones I had no idea about.
So yesterday I trawled through the BVRI CD’s and found the lang deid yins nicely recorded in Duddingston going back to 1750. AS you can imagine this was a slow process, as it was essential that I got the right ones and didn’t get too carried away. Even doing a parent search I decided to eliminate one son who had the John Bakes as father but the mother was Elisabeth Nelson and I have my doubts about a son with parents John Balks and Elisabeth Nielson as she was always referred to as Bessie/Bessy. Although they have not been totally discarded as yet, as I may just do a parent search on John Bakes to see what pops up.

What I found interesting was the change in the surnames of those folk, some just what I would call spelling changes and an other that to me was an Anglocising/Scotifiying of the name from Baaks to Balk, the other name changed from Flucker/Flooker/Flewker.

I don’t feel I am cheating using her information as a basis for my CD searching , as there were no children listed for the parents in question. I believe I found them from my searching using her information as a guideline.

Apart from an opinion on whether I am cheating using her information on my line, I was also wondering if it is possible that the Baaks/Balk and Nielson (Nordic?) line may be from Holland, which would probably mean an end to my searching in this line. And given the links with parents as a guide do you think I am correct it assuming (always fatal) that these are the right ones in my line. I have also noticed a bit of a recurring naming pattern, around the Scottish naming pattern.

Sorry for the long winded post but after the initial euphoria of finding leads and the children, a bit of level headedness has crept in.

[killearnan]

Even doing a parent search I decided to eliminate one son who had the John Bakes as father but the mother was Elisabeth Nelson and I have my doubts about a son with parents John Balks and Elisabeth Nielson as she was always referred to as Bessie/Bessy. Although they have not been totally discarded as yet, as I may just do a parent search on John Bakes to see what pops up.

Why are you automatically rejecting an Elizabeth Neilson because she was always refered to as Bessie Do you have evidence (birth dates too close together, different reisdence consistently listed, and so on) that they weren't the same woman?

Bess(ie) is a standard nickname for Elizabeth, so I expect them to likely be the same person unless there's good evidence to the contrary. And even if her name really was Bessie, I could easily see the minister being told her name was Bessie and writing Elizabeth, assuming that she used Bessie as a nickname and that it was not her full name.

As an example, one woman I can't find in the 1841 census I've found in over a dozen later records, listed under Ellen, Helen and Eleanor. Which one is 'right'? I've no idea. But I am pretty sure her maiden name was Cassidy and not the Norrie her son listed on her marriage record.......but that someone may have called her that based on her first name.

Ditto for the Nelson/Neilson variant. Well within the possible range, especially pre-1800.

BJ

[StewL]

Hello BJ

I should have edited this post as not too long after I made the post, my brain got back into gear and I realised that they were all related, that is one and the same parents, just different name variations.
One of the ways that I did get back on track was doing a parent search for John Bakes and Elisabeth Nelson and no matter what combination I did the results were identical, all the parent searches came back with the same children, with varying surname spelling and parent name spelling.

And having a few in my line with different variations of names I should have known better.

[Russell]

Hi Stewie

That was great to get so much info to work from. You're not jumping to conclusions prematurely though. Its a bit like IGI submissions " Maybe's they're right maybe's they're no"
I think that double checking is vital for your own satisfaction. Corroboration is important to make sure your conclusions (and hers!) are the correct ones.
Enjoy the hunt.

Russell

[StewL]

Hello Russell

I have been cautious about the information I have been given and found.
There were no children listed in her tree for the lang deid yins, it was through my searching BVRI that I filled in the children's details.

The 4th cousin once removed has been doing this research for over 20 years and goes back to Scotland for research.

After I got over the initial high, I began to temper my thoughts and excitement. But I have spent a fair bit of time trying to check the information, but havent as yet purchased any OPR's from SP as yet, just checke to see that they were there.

Unfortunately the initial link of Robert Phillips b 1804 in Liberton is a bit of a stumbling block as it appear he may have died pre 1855, between the 1851 census where he is listed as being born in Edinburgh. His wife Marrion Walker is in the 1861 census but for the life of me I cant find a death for her, in the 1861 census she is living in Lanark, where she was born. But cant find her death anywhere.

I usually dont jump in feet first, but I have this gut feeling that the information I was given was accurate, the lady is not a recent connection, we have communicated for a while, it was just that I couldn't see the trees in genes due to flash player "problems", which have only just been resolved. An example of this caution is another link where I am not sure or convinced we have the connection as yet, so still trying to find the link.
With the Phillips link, I am positive that we are connected, mainly due to a Jane Bruce Phillips who is this ladies direct ancestor, the eldest child of Robert Phillips and Marrion Walker, whereas my link is with the youngest daughter Margaret.

A bit of a long winded reply Russell, and it is not a case of trying to convince myself of the links, or maybe it is

But until last week when I was able to view the ladies tree, I had nothing past Robert Phillips b 1804.

[AndrewP]

Unfortunately the initial link of Robert Phillips b 1804 in Liberton is a bit of a stumbling block as it appear he may have died pre 1855, between the 1851 census where he is listed as being born in Edinburgh. His wife Marrion Walker is in the 1861 census but for the life of me I cant find a death for her, in the 1861 census she is living in Lanark, where she was born. But cant find her death anywhere.

Hi Stew,

No sign of the surname Phillips in the pre-1855 list for the headstones in the churchyard at Liberton Kirk.

http://www.libertonkirk.freeserve.co.uk/
(click on Ancestors link)

All the best,

AndrewP

[Russell]

Hi Stewie

It sounds like you have that gut feeling that its right.
You may not have all the evidence to satsify you but somwhow it just feels right.
I think that some of that is down to patterns rather than specifics.
Let's hope that Marrion/Marion/Meron/Merion pops up in the right place.

Russell

[StewL]

Hello Russell

Yes! It is that strange gut feeling I have that makes me feel that it is right. There are some patterns in the line, but unfortunately I only have Robert Phillips (sic) as a child of Robert Philip & Marion Balks. They did not appear to register any other childen, the start of that pattern

I don't usually take family history lines so easily, in fact if you showed me this lot a few years ago, I would probably have either put them aside somewhere to get lost, or dismiss them.

I know it is dangerous to go on gut instincts in this family history game, but oh well this is the first time i have felt that. so just hope I don't end up with egg on my face

Unfortunately middle names don't help here either, in my mothers line middle family names only seem to appear "fairly" recently that is one or two generations ago, and none related to the families in question.

I must admit I have been spending a fair bit of time on this lot, probably as they are all in the OPR date range, and I hope I havent been blinded by "getting" so far back when I thought I had reached the end of the line.

What I also find interesting is that they all appeared to remain within the Midlothian area, I will have to get a map and see how relatively close they were to each other. I do realise folk didnt travel far back then, but Oh for a census

[Jack]

Hi Stewie,
Hope this is the correct Marion...note no "s" on the end of Phillip.
--
DC 1864. 625-2. 234. (Holytown)
Marion PHILLIP (57)
Widow of Robert PHILLIP, coal miner.
Died - 15 NOV 1864 at Chapelhall, Parish of Bothwell.
Parents - James WALKER (dcd) coal miner & Jane m/s BRYCE (dcd)
Cause - valvular disease of heart, for uncertain time.
Informant - David PHILLIP, his X, son, present.
--
Jack

[StewL]

Hello Jack

Once again your a champion, I think you might have hit the jackpot.
Marrion's parents that I have are James Walker and Jean Bruce
Jane Bryce is very much a possible variation of her name, and the son David Walker Bruce was born 1840. Although at the present I cant recall where I got the Walker/Bruce information from, it could be in some data I lost a while ago when my comp fried? Marrion was born in 1806 in New Monkland, perhaps thats where the information came from.
Close enough in this game to warrant a shooftie on SP (using free credits too ).
As for the lack of "S" on end of Phillips I dont think that is a problem, if the information I was given IS correct then there was no "S" on the end of the name originally.
Bothwell is a good point too, that is where Margaret Phillips my great grandmother was born. Margaret died in Holytown in 1889 too!

Oh and I nearly forgot. If the name is actually Bryce, it wouldnt be the first time wains in this family were given incorrect first and middle names
based on what they thought a name was.