Suicide or Accidental Poisoning?

[sheilajim]

Hi All

In my search I found out that my grandmother had a sister who was a few years older than her. I cannot recall my mother ever mentioning this aunt.

The cause of Death on this aunt's Death Cert is listed as "Probably Poisoning by Salts of Sorrel". There was an RCE on the Death Cert.
Yesterday I looked up the RCE. It stated that she died in an ambulance. Cause of death is listed as Occalic Acid Poisoning. Self administered.
What does this mean? Did she commit suicide, or was it some kind of accident?

Surely my mother must have known about how this aunt died, but she never once mentioned it.
She died in Paisley. Are there any online Paisly newspapers?

Sheila

[LesleyB]

Hi Shiela
Not sure about the circumstances there, but there is some interesting info here concerning oxalic acid:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalic_acid
which suggests it may have been a dangerous substance to ingest, even in smallish doses, for certain groups of people, but I'm not a medical or chemistry-type of person!

Best wishes
Lesley

[Miss Poohs]

Just looked up and found this

"---Parts Used Medicinally---The leaves both dried and fresh.

---Constituents---The sour taste of Sorrel is due to the acid oxalate of potash it contains; tartaric and tannic acids are also present.

---Medicinal Action and Uses---The medicinal action of Sorrel is refrigerant and diuretic, and it is employed as a cooling drink in all febrile disorders.

It is corrective of scrofulous deposits: for cutaneous tumours, a preparation compounded of burnt alum, citric acid, and juice of Sorrel, applied as a paint, has been employed with success.

Sorrel is especially beneficial in scurvy.

Both the root and the seed were formerly esteemed for their astringent properties, and were employed to stem haemorrhage.

A syrup made with the juice of Fumitory and Sorrel had the reputation of curing the itch, and the juice, with a little vinegar, was considered a cure for ringworm, and recommended as a gargle for sore throat.

A decoction of the flowers, made with wine, was said to cure jaundice and ulcerated bowels, the root in decoction or powder being also employed for jaundice, and gravel and stone in the kidneys.

Gerard enumerated eight different kinds of Sorrel - the Garden, bunched or knobbed, Sheep, Romane, Curled, Barren and Great Broad-leaved Sorrel, and said of them:
'The Sorrells are moderately cold and dry. Sorrell doth undoubtedly cool and mightily dry, but because it is sour, it likewise cutteth tough humours. The juice thereof in summer time is a profitable sauce in many meats and pleasant to the taste. It cooleth a hot stomach. The leaves are with good success added to decoctions, and are used in agues. The leaves are taken in good quantity, stamped and stained into some ale and cooleth the body. The leaves are eaten in a tart spinach. The seed of Sorrell drunk in wine stoppeth the tut! tut! flow."

Could have been accidental I guess.

[sheilajim]

Hi Lesley and Miss Poohs,

Thanks for the info. I had never heard of Salts of Sorrel, or occalic acid before. I wonder if this aunt was into self-medication. What a horrible thing to happen. She left young children without a mother.


Regards

Sheila

[LesleyB]

Hi Sheila

History and Chemical Composition.—Wood-sorrel is indigenous to Europe and this country, growing in woody and shady places, and flowering from April to June. It is inodorous and has a pleasantly acid taste, which is somewhat impaired by drying. The acidity is due to the presence of oxalic acid in combination with potassium forming acid potassium oxalate, sometimes called potassium binoxalate (HKC₂O₄). In some parts of Europe this salt was formerly separated from the plant, and sold under the name of salts of sorrel (sometimes under the name salt of lemons), for the purpose of removing ink spots and iron marks front linen. This salt is poisonous when taken internally. It can now be conveniently prepared from oxalic acid.

Action, Medical Uses, and Dosage.—The several varieties of sorrel are cooling and diuretic. Useful in febrile diseases, hemorrhages, gonorrhoea, chronic catarrh, urinary affections, and in scurvy, it may be used in infusion, or it may be infused in milk to form whey, or the herb may be eaten, but in neither case to excess, on account of the potassium binoxalate they contain. Externally, the bruised leaves or inspissated juice have been found useful as an application to scrofulous, malignant, and indolent ulcers. The Rumex Acetosa (more), or Garden sorrel, R. Acetosella (more), or Sheep sorrel, and R. vesicarius (more), possess similar properties (which see). The antidote to poisoning by any of the species of Oxalis, or by oxalic acid or potassium binoxalate, is a mixture of chalk with water.

http://www.henriettesherbal.com/eclecti ... xalis.html
Looks like "Salts of Sorrel" were not supposed to be taken, but if you knew Sorrel was a medicinal herb for some ailments, I suppose it might be possible to make a fatal error of judgement....
Best wishes
Lesley

[sheilajim]

Hi Lesley,

Now I am more confused than ever. It doesn't state on the RCE whether this was an accident or a suicide. It only states that it was self administered.

Regards

Sheila

[DavidWW]

It's oxalic acid, and, as I suspected, sorrel contains this poisonous substance, see http://www.answers.com/topic/oxalic-acid .

David

[DavidWW]

It's oxalic acid, and, as I suspected, sorrel contains this poisonous substance, see http://www.answers.com/topic/oxalic-acid .

So does rhubarb which is why it's not eaten raw!! (although it's the leaves that contain the highest concentrations).

David

PS
From the above site ......

Oxalic acid irritates the lining of the gut when consumed, and can prove fatal in large doses. The LD50 for pure oxalic acid is predicted to be about 378 mg/kg body weight, or about 22 g for a 60 kg human.

22gm is only about ¾ oz ................ "LD50" is the dosage level at which 50% of those receiving/taking it would die. An infusion of sorrel leaves could easily lead to high concentrations of oxalic acid.
dww

PPS
Just to worry you, have a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potato for info on the poisonous compounds contained in potatoes, - glycoalkaloids, the most prevalent being solanine and chaconinesolanine. So don't eat more than several kgs/day, and steer clear of green potatoes!!
dww

[wini]

Sorry to disagree with you David, but raw rhubarb is not harmful.(apart from too much making you need to visit the laavy a bit regularly)
Didn't you ever have a poke of sugar and a stick of rhubarb. We lived across from a rhubarb field and often pinched the rhubarb. The leaves are the poisonous bit

wini

[nancy]

Good grief David

I can remember our mums giving us kids sticks of rhubarb,and a wee poke of sugar to dip it in,when we were youngsters.I went daft for it,as i love sour things

Nancy