Patience of Avoch

ensgrigsby · Post by **ensgrigsby** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:00 pm

I am a brand new member to this Forum but have already learned an immense amount by just reading so many of the posts in the different areas. Thank you all so much

And a special thanks to DavidWW for his recommendation of the Scottish Family Tree Detective by Rosemary Bigwood. Using that I have made some additional progress, which has also become a source of my current confusion.

Using what I learned, I obtained a Death Certificate from Scotland's People for an ancestor, David Patience who died on 22 March 1880. According to his son Alexander, his parents were Donald Patience and Margaret Leitch. However, the OPR for his birth on 2 Dec 1791 shows his mother as Anne Leitch.

There is an Anne Leitch, born on 16 Feb 1769, father, James Leitch, but she was born in Kiltearn, which isn't even on the Black Isle, but is across the Cromarty Firth. The Patience family were fishermen so it is perhaps possible.

But, I found a Margaret Leitch who was born on 3 Aug 1775 (which would have made her only 16 at the birth of David) in Avoch. Her father's name was Alexander.

So I have a few concerns: Did the grandson, Alexander, know the first name of his grandmother? And if so, could the birth record of David show the wrong first name of his mother? Could Margaret have been his mother?

Margaret and Alexander are common names on my family tree, appearing much more often than Anne or James.

Does anyone have any suggestions on the next steps I should take? Other than the OPRs and Testaments, is there any place else that I should be looking?

Susan

Post by **AndrewP** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:39 pm

Hi Susan,

Welcome to TalkingScot.

Have you traced this family through the censuses? These should show the birthplace given by David. Even better if you can find his parents in the older censuses. Could Donald have married twice - possibly to two Leitch brides? Or did Alexander give his mother's name instead of his grandmother's name when registering his father's death?

It looks like there were many Patience families in the area at the time. You will have your work cut out for you keeping to the right family lines.

All the best,

AndrewP

Post by **emanday** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:41 pm

Personally, I'd be more inclined to say that the birth entry is the most likely one to be accurate.

From personal experience in my own research I have been occasionally flummoxed by informants not having the correct information about grandparents names.

If his grandmother died either before his own birth or while he was quite young, he may not have known/been sure about her name. This could equally apply to the name he gave for his grandfather.

That said, I have a cousin who was christened Margaret but always called Anne (her middle name) because Margaret was her mother's name and it avoided confusion.

May be a sideways bit of research might work here. Did Alexander's mother have siblings? Sometimes the problem can be solved by finding one or more of their DC's and finding out what the parents names are on them.

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:43 pm

Hi Susan
..and welcome to Talking Scot

Did the grandson, Alexander, know the first name of his grandmother? And if so, could the birth record of David show the wrong first name of his mother?

Based on what you have siad, it seems more likely that the names given at the time of death may not be accurate. It happens quite often, espcially if the death informant is a couple of generations removed - he had possibly not ever met his grandparents.
Have you tried looking for the family in earlier (1871 and earlier) census records? In that way you might find them as a family group which would not only confirm the name of the mother, but her place of birth too.

Best wishes
Lesley

ensgrigsby · Post by **ensgrigsby** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:09 pm

Thank you all so much!

Patience is a name that can drive you crazy. Searching for the name on Forums like this is pointless as it usually only produces the noun instead of the name.

Plus, it is one of only a few surnames in Avoch and they all passed around the same forenames! Some days it feels like confusion has become my new comfort zone.

The 1841 census only shows a 60 year old Donald married to Margaret. My ancestor should have been 68 as his son David would have been around 50 in 1841. However, David does appear on the same census page, just a few doors down. His oldest son is Donald and his oldest daughter is Ann. Allowing for a mistake in Donald's age on the census, it does seem that Margaret may have been his second wife, with Ann dying after David's birth, but remembered in the naming of his daughter.

That would also explain why Alexander thought his grandmother's name was Margaret. By the time Alexander was born his grandmother probably was Margaret!

Wow. Thank you all for your ideas, looks like I have some more leads to follow up now...

Susan

Post by **emanday** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:13 pm

Just another thing that might help. Watch the spellings of that name Patience. Ancestry has a fair few Patince.

I'd suggest making good use of the wildcard facility on SP could be helpful.

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:21 pm

ensgrigsby wrote:Thank you all so much!

The 1841 census only shows a 60 year old Donald married to Margaret. My ancestor should have been 68 as his son David would have been around 50 in 1841. However, David does appear on the same census page, just a few doors down. His oldest son is Donald and his oldest daughter is Ann. Allowing for a mistake in Donald's age on the census, it does seem that Margaret may have been his second wife, with Ann dying after David's birth, but remembered in the naming of his daughter.

Susan

Hello Susan,

Remember ages are rounded down to the nearest five in the 1841 census so Donald could have been any age between 60 - 64. Still not as old as you want but ...............

Kind regards,
Annette M

Post by **AndrewP** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:35 pm

emanday wrote:Just another thing that might help. Watch the spellings of that name Patience. Ancestry has a fair few Patince.

I'd suggest making good use of the wildcard facility on SP could be helpful.

As Susan will have probably have already seen, the wildcard facility can also help find mistranscribed names. The 1880 death of David Patience is indexed as Dvid Patience.

Susan, you should complete a contact form on ScotlandsPeople and advise them of this to allow them to correct their index. If you wasted credits trying to find this man because of the mis-indexing, advise them and they may refund some credits to you.

All the best,

AndrewP

nelmit · Post by **nelmit** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:46 pm

Hello again,

Just had a look at FREECEN and see you dilhema

regarding the surname.

I think the Margaret you found with the 60 year old Donald may be Margaret Main. Obviously I can't be positive but the birth years of the younger members of the household tally.

Kind regards,
Annette M

ensgrigsby · Post by **ensgrigsby** » Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:57 pm

Since I have started reading this board (only about a week) I have been using only the first letter of the forename on ScotlandsPeople. I have gotten much better results that way, although I had not noticed that the 1880 death was indexed under Dvid.

Annette, thanks for pointing out the rule on the ages in the 1841 census. I had read that earlier but forgotten it. It explains a lot. I can't help but wonder if I can ever be certain that I have the right family...

Susan