Beattie/Kirkpatrick

[Baldy]

I am looking for a little advice please.
I am in the process of researching Mary Beattie & William Kirkpatrick.
The Mary that I am referring to is Mary Jane Beattie born 1877 to James Beattie & Margaret Holmes.
Here is the problem
I have been sharing my information with another person,who is also researching Mary Beattie.This person has replied to me with the following
Quote "Thank you. So I have the Beatties down correctly, and according to your tree which I've just taken a look at, we differ with Mary Beattie 1877's husband, William Kirkpatrick.
I have the William K. b. 1874 in Lochmaben (Tailor) and you have William K. b.1878 in Tinwald.
My William's parents were William b.1848 in Kier, Dumfreisshire a Grocer, and Agnes Irving.
and yours' were Joseph K. and Mary Scott.
But strange that they had both married a Kirkpatrick around the same time.
I have 6 Beatties on my Tree. Mary b.1877-1929 in Tinwald, Dumfriesshire, her father is James b.1833, mother Margaret Holmes b.1845 in Tinwald, his father is William Beattie b.1810 who married Janet Callendar b.1810 and his mother was Isbell Manderson b.1787 in Hutton, Dumfries. No father found. " unquote.
All the Beattie's that she has above is in total 100% correct

The information that I have was given to me by a person who is/was related (albeit down the track a bit) I have asked him about the correctness of his information ;and he has told me that his mother (now aged 90 +) is still alive & the information came from her.The Kirkpatricks did come from Keir

I have looked on the LDS site & can find only 1 William Kirkpatrick born that year,the parents are NOT what she has .

I would welcome "any" help on this please

TIA Baldy

[AndrewP]

Hi Baldy,

The births extracted from the Scottish records on the IGI stop at 1874, so any later than that will be LDS submissions, which need to be verified elsewhere before they can reliably be taken as a fact.

You really need to use the original records on ScotlandsPeople (or New Register House or Park Circus had you stayed nearer to either of them) and then you should know fact from family recollection, even though that is given as "true" with the best of intentions.

All the best,

AndrewP

[paddyscar]

Hi Baldy:

The IGI is built from records which have been submitted by individuals and from those transcribed by LDS church members.

There is only 1 William Kirkpatrick birth/christening listed on the IGI for 1878
William Kirkpatrick Pedigree
Birth: 04 FEB 1878 Keir, Dumfries, Scotland
Parents: Father: Joseph Kirkpatrick Mother: Mary Leslie Scott

"Ancestral File is a collection of genealogical information taken from Pedigree Charts and Family Group Records submitted to the Family History Department since 1978. The information has not been verified against any official records. Since the information in Ancestral File is contributed, it is the responsibility of those who use the file to verify its accuracy."

ScotlandsPeople is the most complete source of Scottish records. Although it is a pay-per-view site, it is well worth using your credit card to buy 30 credits for £6.

You can do some free searching to locate records. I have searched for William Kirkpatrick born 1874 and there are 4 records. There are also 4 records for William Kirkpatrick born 1878. Although these do not give you the parents names, they do identify the location of birth.

You might be better to go with the 1900 marriage record for William Kirkpatrick to Mary Beattie (of which there is only one between 1890 and 1936). If you look at that marriage record, it will give you the ages of William and Mary and their occupations. It will also give you the names of both sets of parents (including mother's maiden name) and their occupations.

Hope that will smooth the bump for you,
Frances

[Kathy]

I had a few credits unused on SP.

Marriage 1900 William Kirkpatrick & Mary Jane Beattie, Dumfries. GROS DATA 821/00 0022

I paid to view, but there seems to be a problem on SP with viewing.

Kathy

[DavidWW]

The logic goes like this.............

The 1900 marriage of W^m KIRKPATRICK and Mary Jane BEATTIE shows both the parents of Mary Jane, but only the mother of William as he was illegitimate, and she is neither Agnes IRVING or Mary SCOTT

The 1901 census for the couple, incidentally showing them in the household Mary Janes's widowed father, shows William's place of birth as the parish of Tinwald in the county of Dumfries.

There is no such birth record, but there is one in the neighbouring parish of Torthorwald, matching exactly on the ages reported in 1900 and 1901, where the child is illegitimate, and the mother's name matches that on the 1900 marriage register entry for William, but it isn't Agnes IRVING or Mary SCOTT.

If a family moved when a child was young it's quite often the case that the parish of birth reported in the census is the first parish that they remember, not the actual parish of birth.

The information that I have was given to me by a person who is/was related (albeit down the track a bit) I have asked him about the correctness of his information ;and he has told me that his mother (now aged 90 +) is still alive & the information came from her.The Kirkpatricks did come from Keir

That your KIRKPATRICK line came from the parish of Keir may well be the case, but the KIRKPATRICK surname here comes not from his father but his mother, given his illegitimate birth.

His mother has a reasonably unusual given name, and you'll find an obvious match in the 1871 census for her, showing her parents; but it looks like her birth was just before 1855, and not in the OPR. Her mother in turn has a very unusual given name, leading to its being very easy to locate her death record, showing her parents.

Based on the info to date, it's then very straightforward to locate the death register entry for father, again giving his parents' names.

The investment of a few $ on www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk , where all the above can be easily found has to be your next step

David

[DavidWW]

I had a few credits unused on SP.

Marriage 1900 William Kirkpatrick & Mary Jane Beattie, Dumfries. GROS DATA 821/00 0022

I paid to view, but there seems to be a problem on SP with viewing.

Kathy

No viewing problem this end over the last wee while!

David

[Kathy]

Hi David,

I have filled in the question email to SP.

No luck viewing images, I'm presently using java applet, and have tested it, it's testing ok

I tried changing to direct download & activex control, without any luck.

On Java applet, I get a message
4515-4032-3102
viewONE is not licensed for web site.
http://scotlandspeople.gov.uk/viewers/j ... t/v1files/
please contact support @daeja.com
to purchase a licensed copy please see our website at http:/www.daeja.com

Kathy

[Baldy]

Hi to all.
Many thanks for those that replied & helped.
Here is the information that was passed to me about Mary Leslie Scott,who married Joseph Kirkpatrick.Joseph is/was the (given to me ) the father of William who married Mary Jane Beattie !

First name: Mary Known as:
Middle name: Leslie Occupation:
Surname: Scott Date of birth: 30/08/1843
Year of birth: 1843 Date of baptism:
Gender: Female Year of death:
Source of data: IGI

Place of birth: Kieremill, Keir, Dumfries
Place of baptism:
Place of death:
Notes: Mary Leslie Scott Female Family -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Event(s): Birth: 30 AUG 1843 Keiremill, Keir, Dumfries, Scotland Christening: Death: 15 JAN 1912 Burial: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Parents: Father: John Scott Family Mother: Mary Leslie Reid -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Marriages: Spouse: Joseph Kirkpatrick Family Marriage: 18 MAR 1870 Keir, Dumfries, Scotland
Spouse name: Joseph Kirkpatrick
Place of marriage: Keir, Dumfries
Date of marriage: 18/03/1870
Divorced: No


Here now lies another anomally about who the father of William was ?I did not know that he was illegitimate ?

It looks as if I will have to go back to square one & start again with Mary Beattie?

[DavidWW]

Many thanks for those that replied & helped.
Here is the information that was passed to me about Mary Leslie Scott,who married Joseph Kirkpatrick.Joseph is/was the (given to me ) the father of William who married Mary Jane Beattie !

Ah hae ma doots

.....snipped...............

Here now lies another anomally about who the father of William was ?I did not know that he was illegitimate ?

It looks as if I will have to go back to square one & start again with Mary Beattie?

No anomaly if you indeed have the right couple for the 1900 marriage in the town of Dumfries and the county of Dumfries !, but then there is just the one marriage between a Mr KIRKPATRICK and a Miss BEATTIE in the period 1851 to 1931 .........................

That marriage register entry, as does his 1876 birth register entry, clearly shows his mother as Jemima KIRKPATRICK, and his birth as illegitimate

So spend some credits now at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and follow the trail that I laid out for you above.

David

[DavidWW]

In relation to Joseph KIRKPATRICK and Elizabeth SCOTT, here they are in 1881...........

Dwelling: Boat Croft
Census Place: Keir, Dumfries, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0224049 GRO Ref Volume 833 EnumDist 3 Page 4
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
Joseph KIRKPATRICK M 39 M Keir, Dumfries, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Farmer Of 47 Ac All Ara Emp 1 Man & 1 Woman
Elisabeth KIRKPATRICK 10 F Keir, Dumfries, Scotland
Rel: Dau
Occ: Scholar
William KIRKPATRICK 3 M Keir, Dumfries, Scotland
Rel: Son
James MC ADAM U 21 M Penpont, Dumfries, Scotland
Rel: Serv
Occ: Farm Serv
Jane COLLOW U 18 F Keir, Dumfries, Scotland
Rel: Serv
Occ: Farm Serv

There is indeed a son William, but his 1945 death register entry shows him as the widower of Elizabeth SCOTT. There's no such marriage so that I have to wonder if the informant, a son-in-law. got the info wrong, possibly confusing the spouse of the deceased with the deceased's mother ......

David