85th Regiment Dover Castle 1826?

[alysone]

Hi Everyone,
I have the following transcripts:
Entry No. 639, Sep 3rd 1826, James Sampson Bird son of James & Susan, residence Dover Castle, Father's occupation Private 85th Regiment.
Entry No. 640, Sep 3rd 1826, Edward Sampson Bird son of James & Susan, residence Dover Castle, Father's occupation Private 85th Regiment.
I believe this father, James Bird, turned up on Castlehill (Piper's Close), Edinburgh in 1841 as a "Labourer". His occupation is variously listed as Labourer/Gunsmith/Gunmaker/ Armourer. He seems to have gone missing at intervals.
I would appreciate advice on researching his movements? Thanks, alysone

[ellenavon]

Hi Rosalie

got your pm.

This is where the 85th Regiment were deployed 1808-1880:


1808 85th (Bucks Volunteers) Regiment of Foot (Light Infantry)
converted to light infantry
1809 Holland: Walcheren
1811 Portugal
1811 Peninsular war
1811.12 England
1813 Peninsular war
1814.04 France
1814 American war: Atlantic coast
1815 American war: New Orleans
1815 England
1821 Malta
1827 Gibraltar
1828 Malta
1831 England
1833 Ireland
1836 Canada
1838 Canada
1838 Canada
1843 West Indies
1846 Ireland
1850 England
1853 Mauritius
1856 South Africa
1863 England
1865 Ireland
1868 India
1878 Afghanistan
1880 India

I'm no military expert, but as we have James and Susan in Edinburgh in 1841, it looks as though he may have changed regiments. Also if he was with and stayed with the 85th, we should be able to find him on the 1851 in England!

I'm sure there's a way of establishing which regiment(s) would have been at Edinburgh Castle at the time of the 1841 census - but I'm not expert enough! Will have a look around though.

I'm sure someone with more expertise will be on here soon to give you a nudge in the right direction.

In the meantime, this is the link to the deployment info above:

www.regiments.org/deploy/uk/reg-inf/085-1.htm

All the best.

Ellen.

[alysone]

Hi Ellen,
I find it intriguing comparing the birth dates of the known children against your list of movements:
The "twins' born in 1826. Perhaps they were not twins at all but separate births registered when the family came home from Malta?
Thomas, born 1835
Sophia Letita b. 1838
Eliza b. 1841
We know that one of said "twins", Edward Sampson, married Cecilia Sophia Bird, son of Thomas Bird (army pensioner) in 1872. In all likelihood, she was a cousin, son of James' brother, Thomas, b. 1800. She was born in Corfu in 1849 from the MC. (Sorry to weave more threads into this fabric but is it not ever thus, cousins & the like?) working backwards?

I'm no military expert, but as we have James and Susan in Edinburgh in 1841, it looks as though he may have changed regiments. Also if he was with and stayed with the 85th, we should be able to find him on the 1851 in England!

Excellent point. Perhaps he left the Army or as you suggest changed regiments? By 1851 he would have been 54 & we know he was dead by 1858?
I do hope we get advice from the TS military experts because I feel utterly out of my depth in this arena. I must say however, as I began to look at the subject, I can see how someone could get utterly hooked on this aspect of family research! Onward! alysone

[emanday]

Perhaps they were not twins at all but separate births registered when the family came home from Malta?

Quite a possible explanation! My late husband and his sister were both registered in the same year, even though they were born four years apart. OK, so that was in Turkey, but their father was a British subject working in the consulate at the time of their registrations.

I have also found the birth registrations of two of his "aunts" in 1972, 60 & 65 YEARS after the dates they were actually born in Turkey of British nationality entitled parentage. Seems they needed to have this done to obtain British passports to attend the christening of a relative in London in 1972!

[alysone]

Thanks for the insight, emanday.
Twins is tempting since there have been at least one pair in all but one of the last 8 generations of this family (and some expected soon, by cousins!). However, it is not a given in this case. Also the fact that the 2 births were registered 4 years before the marriage in 1830? Could that have the same explanation or are we really stretching the concept? alysone

[emanday]

Also the fact that the 2 births were registered 4 years before the marriage in 1830?

Can you tell us the actual wording on how the births were registered? Sometimes, if the parents were not married at the time, the word "lawful" is not shown within the registration of the son/daughter.

[alysone]

Can you tell us the actual wording on how the births were registered? Sometimes, if the parents were not married at the time, the word "lawful" is not shown within the registration of the son/daughter.

I asked a contact in England who has these Parishes on CD to check on it for me. This is what she sent (& there is no sign of "lawful")?

"Entry No. 639, Sep 3rd 1826, James Sampson Bird son of James & Susan, residence Dover Castle, Father's occupation Private 85th Regiment.
Entry No. 640, Sep 3rd 1826, Edward Sampson Bird son of James & Susan, residence Dover Castle, Father's occupation Private 85th Regiment."

I acquired the 12 Jul 1830, Stoke Damerel marriage entry for James Bird & Susan Quick in the same way. Thanks for helping me, alysone

[Currie]

Hello Alysone,

The Military Expert, whoever that is, hasn’t turned up so I’ll have a go and hope I don’t lead you too far up the garden path.

Here’s a few more scraps of info on the history of the 85th and some bits and pieces that might be useful.

http://www.discovershropshire.org.uk/ht ... 0915134346

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com ... try-2.html

Note the reference to Soldiers Documents against the 85th entry in the Canadian page it links to LDS Family History Library films 904050 – 904056 and 900337. If you search for these numbers at this page http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Library ... umns=*,0,0
you’ll find them described as “Soldiers documents : service documents of soldiers, containing particulars of age, birthplace and trade or occupation on enlistment, a record of service, including any decorations and the reason for discharge to pension, 1760-1872. Microfilm of original records in the Public Record Office, London. For the period 1760-1854 the documents are arranged by regiments, including Militia. W.O. 97.”

Your ancestor was possibly too young but he may have been involved is some quite important historical events if he was in the 85th at the time. The 85th was heavily involved in the Napoleonic Wars and the War of 1812 against the United States of America. In fact they took part in the attack on Washington in August 1914 when British Soldiers set fire to Dolly Madison’s house. Rain put out the fire and later on when she couldn’t get the smoke marks off the masonry she decided to paint it white.

Enlistment periods in the Infantry varied in the first half of the 19th Century from 7 years to life (that’s interesting, convicted felons got 7 years to death) and are set out on page 548 of this Google Book http://www.google.com.au/books?id=K7kKA ... =RA5-PA548

I don’t know whether the Regiments.org deployment lists mean that the whole Regiment moved or only part of it. The 1838 movement to Canada appears to have been in two stages according to the British Regiments in Canada page. “June 1838, three companies of 85th Regiment arrived in Upper Canada, remaining companies arrive in December.” It is possible that detachments, or parts, of regiments were sent to various places for whatever reason without the whole Regiment going.

The National Archives has a number of Research Guides on the subject listed on this page under “B” (In particular work through “British Army: Soldiers' Discharge Papers, 1760-1913”) http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/cata ... ex.asp?j=1
I’ve never accessed these records so can’t advise you on the mechanics or the cost of doing so. National Archives describes WO 97 as being “Royal Hospital Chelsea: Soldiers Service Documents”

If WO97 is of Chelsea Pensioners, and if he happened to be one he may be on it, and you live near a LDS Library, you may find it easier and less expensive? to order the Film (904050?) than go the National Archives route. Other relevant series might be Regimental description WO25 (FHL Films 859623 and 859624) and Muster Rolls WO12 but I can’t find film numbers for that one.

Here’s another fairly comprehensive guide http://globalgenealogy.com/globalgazett ... azfd44.htm

Hope this helps and hasn’t confused the issue,
Alan

[Currie]

A bit more:

This 1851 book “An alphabetical list of the officers of the Eighty-fifth, Bucks Volunteers.”
http://www.google.com.au/books?id=AlcBA ... frontcover
has a 12 page Regimental History at the front in very small print, but you can extract the OCR’d text by selecting “view plain text” for each page and check it against the image if ever you wanted a typed version.

Alan

[alysone]

Hi Alan,
Thanks really doesn't cover this situation. I spent considerable time last night & this morning, following up on all the links you have so kindly laid out here. How fascinating it all is?!
I was really interested to read about the variation in enlistment periods (from 7 years to life) depending on the enlistment date. Also, that once enlisted, there was no such thing as changing regiments.
It is still only a guess but he would have been 18 in 1815 & therefore could have been in New Orleans? I have a cousin who is equally interested in James' career. She lives near London & hopes to head off to Kew in the New Year. If we knew his career dates that would pin many things down.
Here is a great explanation of what the 85th were doing in Canada in 1838. http://www.cmhg.gc.ca/cmh/en/page_431.asp
Without a doubt, I will be visiting the War Museum in Ottawa my next trip east (Feb.). Oh, any idea on how to find out which regiments would have been in Edinburgh in 1841? Since he shows there on Castlehill in the 1841 census, mis transcribed as "Bend" at ancestry.
(Thanks Ellen!) viewtopic.php?t=10819
I might have a clue what he was doing there. I think will post that 1841 census to the gallery.
I haven't had a chance to follow up on your morning's post but will before much longer. Gratefully, alysone

Added later: Here is the 1841 Census for the family in Edinburgh.
http://talkingscot.com/gallery/displayi ... ?pos=-1446