Chelsea Pensioner and a wee help.....

[STUARTDALGLEISH]

Hi all, first post on the new site.


I have a Chappie (James Rose) who had a daughter called Ann Jane Rose, born about 1849 in Kent (not confirmyed yet with certificate), but taken from 1881 census, mother Abigail Tyrrell

He then goes on to have a daughter Mary Jane Rose born in Stornaway 1853. He is listed as a Policeman and the 78th Reg. (from OPR)

In 1857 he has a couple of twins Mathew and Ruth Rose born in Inverness and now he is listed as a Chelsea Pensioner.

Both twins die within days of each other in 1859 (Inverness) and James is listed as a pensioner, alive and he registered their death.

James Rose is dead when Mary Jane Rose got married in 1885 (Forres)and he is listed as an army pensioner 78th Highlanders.

1881 shows the mother,Abigail, with the family in Inverness so they don't seemed to have moved very far.

......so, two questions, can anybody help with clues to finding James' death cert as I can't seem to find it and do you think he was a Chelsea Pensioner? I thought they had to be in London to qualify to be called this. Is this the reason I can't find the record in Scotland because he was in London?

[DavidWW]

The magnificent old gentlemen in their red uniforms are "In-pensioners", i.e. they live in the hospital itself. All army pensioners were "Chelsea" pensioners, but the vast majority were "Out-pensioners", living at home.

There was an equivalent in Dublin at Kilmainham.

Davie

[DavidWW]

For the death record of James ROSE, formerly of the 79th of Foot, The Cameron Highlanders, procedure required as follows ...........

STEP 1: Note address in Inverness on the 1859 death of the wee wains.

STEP 2: Taking account of the ca. 1849 birth of Ann Jane, assume she was the youngest, and that James married young, and calculate an age in 1859 on that basis. Deduct a couple of years for luck.

STEP 3: Note that Abigail ROSE MS TYRRELL is shown as "W" = Widow in the 1881 census. Using the year of birth, take, say 10 years, off that, and calculate resultant age in 1881. Add a couple of years for luck.

STEP 4: Log on to scotlandspeople.gov.uk, pay the necessary spondulicks if no credits left , and search for the death of a James ROSE of that range of ages in the period 1859 to 1881. Concentrate first on Inverness and surrounds, before widening the search.

STEP 5: If no success from Step 4, widen the age range used.

STEP 6: If no succes, resort to a decent malt whisky , and/or engage the professional services of an expert.

Possible complications?

I seem to recall reading somewhere that army pensioners had to present themselves at regular intervals to the authorities to prove the presence of life and the continuing entitlement to the army pension, but cannot for the life of me recall if this could be done at the nearest regimental HQ, in the case of Inverness that of the 79th of Foot, The Cameron Highlanders in Inverness; or whether they had to travel further, even possibly, on occasions, London, and if he died while furth of Scotland..............???....

Secondly, from 1856 onwards for a number of years (I'm being deliberately obtuse so as not to spoil the thrill of the hunt!), the info on the name of the spouse was dropped from a Scottish death register entry; with the marital status only being shown; but then, if a matching death register entry could be found at 10 Madras Street in that period, then that would be powerful proof that this is the correct record, n'est ce pas ??!!

Heid banging, Eh!?, nae need furrit on this DG

Davie

[STUARTDALGLEISH]

David,

You always give me a laugh. Turned round twice, lifted left leg and jumped over the cat, sang Donald where's yer troosers, added a measure of Grand old Parr to my tummy, looked at all my records again, and got him eating a Madras in the street 1860. In the middle of moving all my stuff onto Brothers Keeper but still no excuses.

Cheers again

Stuart

[DavidWW]

David,

You always give me a laugh. Turned round twice, lifted left leg and jumped over the cat, sang Donald where's yer troosers, added a measure of Grand old Parr to my tummy, looked at all my records again, and got him eating a Madras in the street 1860. In the middle of moving all my stuff onto Brothers Keeper but still no excuses.

Cheers again

Stuart

For the sake of others reading this thread, the address shown on the deaths of the wee wains in 1859 was 10 Madras Steeet, Inverness; and a 50 year old James Rose, Chelsea Pensioner, (married) is shown as dying at that same address in 1860.

Davie

[DavidWW]

For the death record of James ROSE, formerly of the 79th of Foot, The Cameron Highlanders, procedure required as follows ........... much snipped ............Davie

As the author of "The Naming & Numbering of Scottish Regiments of Foot Cavalry & Militia" what can I say but to bow my head in shame

The 78th of Foot were, of course, The Ross-shire Buffs...........

After the Cardwell reforms of 1881, the regiment became the 2nd Battalion The Seaforth Highlanders.

Davie

[marie]

Stuart,

I have had some success in finding out army records of ancestors who were eligible for pensions. These records are to be found in the catalogue from the National Archives (previously PRO) at Kew. The url is www.nationalarchives.gov.uk.
Search the catalogue for a James Rose and it brings up 20 possible records in the WO (Armed Forces and War Office) records. If you look down the list, there is a James Rose who served from 1827 - 1849, was in the 78th regiment of foot and was born in Duthill, Invernesshire.

You can then order a copy of the records held for this reference. You have to pay a deposit for an "estimate" fee - £10. This is then deducted from the final cost of copying and posting the records. It is worth looking for a few other records of any other military ancestors since each record might only cost around £3 or so for copying - and you don't get the change back from the £10. However, the information sent is fascinating - often including a description of the soldier in question - in case the discharge papers fall into the wrong hands!

While you will undoubtedly find more by going to Kew - £10 is not a bad start! I have a number of these records and find the detail in them fascinating.

Marie

[Fife49er]

I too have come across an alleged Chelsea Pensioner in my ancestry, a Robert Stewart, born in Ceres (Fife) in 1782. This individual shows up, aged 69, in the 1851 Census and his "Rank, Profession or Occupation" is given as "Tailor, Chelsea Pensioner".

Now, I followed the advice in the preceding post but there are no Robert Stewarts listed - at least none that were born in Fife.

Am I doing something wrong in my searching? Or is it possible that the 1851 Census itself is just plain wrong?

Alan Stewart

[emmess]

Hello,
Does anyone know how to find what branch of the army would be stationed at Shorncliffe army camp in 1871? On the 1871 Kent census a Robert Bruce 36yrs born Scotland was classed as a gunner in District Camp 1 but I can’t find what regiment he was in. On his page there are bombardiers and trumpeters if that is relevant.
I am hoping to connect this Robert as my ancestor who reappeared in 1881 Inch census as a 46yr old Pensioner, after being missing in 1861 and1871.
According to a Folkestone web site Shorncliffe camp was a holding camp for servicemen going abroad.
I had a look at the military history on the National Archive site but kept getting lost in various documents with loads of abbreviations !! plus - with a name like Robert Bruce I kept being offered nobility -not the farm worker he was.
Hope someone can help.
emmess

[Tracey]

This seems to be the closest to your James Rose on TNA. If this is him and you order the document it should give the reason for his discharge and the decision of the Chelsea Medical Board re his pension.

WO 97/889/117 JAMES ROSE Born DUTHILL, Inverness-shire Served in 78th Foot Regiment Discharged aged 41 1827-1849