Royal Scots Fusilers - Service Number

[Heather]

Looking for some advice and help.
I am trying to determine a couple of things about someone who was in the 2nd Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers, 1914 -1915.

Firstly, by looking at a Service Number is there any way to tell if this person was regular army or not? His number was #7312. He was married in 1911 and at that point in time he lists himself as a civlian worker. He entered theatre early November 1914.

Also, another puzzle for me and I'm hoping someone might have some knowledge and be a able to shed some light regarding Medals. My guy was died on the 12th of March 1915. His medal card shows that he received the 1914 Star, The Victory and the British. Were all medals issued at the end of the war ? If this is the case I have a wee question. On his medal card, he is listed as a Private. On the the Commonwealth War Graves site, the same man is listed as a Lance Corporal. If he had been promoted before his death, would that not be reflected on the medal card, assumming they were issued after the war?

The individual in question here is Hugh Lynch, 1881 - 1915. He was from Ayr.

Thanks for any information or ideas .. in advance

Heather

[DavidWW]

Looking for some advice and help.
I am trying to determine a couple of things about someone who was in the 2nd Battalion Royal Scots Fusiliers, 1914 -1915.

Firstly, by looking at a Service Number is there any way to tell if this person was regular army or not? His number was #7312. He was married in 1911 and at that point in time he lists himself as a civlian worker. He entered theatre early November 1914.

That low a number implies that he was in regular battalion, or a Special Reserve (aka Militia) battalion, and you prove that by knowing that he served with the 2nd Bn, a regular unit, - see http://www.regiments.org/regiments/uk/inf/021RSF.htm

He could well have been in the army previously, then in the reserve and called up in 1914, so shown on his marriage register entry in terms of his civilian occupation.

The fact that he was born in 1881 leaves open the distinct possibility that he served for a 6 or 7 year term before his marriage. (The actual term was 12 years, with the balance as part of the Army Reserve.)

If his earlier regular engagement was with the 21st of Foot, aka "The Fusil Jocks", then he should have some interesting campaign medals either from the Boer War, or India

Also, another puzzle for me and I'm hoping someone might have some knowledge and be a able to shed some light regarding Medals. My guy was died on the 12th of March 1915. His medal card shows that he received the 1914 Star, The Victory and the British. Were all medals issued at the end of the war ? If this is the case I have a wee question. On his medal card, he is listed as a Private. On the the Commonwealth War Graves site, the same man is listed as a Lance Corporal. If he had been promoted before his death, would that not be reflected on the medal card, assumming they were issued after the war?

As far as I am aware, the medals were issued after the end of the war. (Certainly the Victory one )

Heather

It could be the case that his Lance Corporal rating was a promotion in the field, with his substantive rank still Private.


David

[ROY M]

Hi Heather
In Soldiers Died in the Great War his entry reads as
"Lynch Hugh, b. Ayr, e. Ayr, 7312, L/Cpl., k. in a., F.& F., 12/3/15"
so he was definetely listed as a Lance Corporal.
One of my Martins had a temporarary promotion and even that was shown on his medal card.
The 2nd Battalion only shows one other Lynch, Peter but he died in 1917.
In the 1st Battallion there is
"Lynch Edward, e. Ayr, 265180, Pte., d., F.& F., 28/3/18"
is this one of yours.
Hope some of this might help.

[DavidWW]

Looks like the medal card is in error.

From the date of death, it looks like it was the Battle of Neuve Chappell.

David

[Heather]

Thanks for the replies !!!

"L/Cpl., k. in a., F.& F., 12/3/15"

F. & F. - can you tell me what this means ?

Also, assuming that his Service Record may have survived, would one's service record contain all the person's military history - as opposed to just the happenings during World War ? It would be interesting to know this before taking the plunge in trying to determine if his record survived.

Heather

[DavidWW]

Thanks for the replies !!!

"L/Cpl., k. in a., F.& F., 12/3/15"

F. & F. - can you tell me what this means ?

Also, assuming that his Service Record may have survived, would one's service record contain all the person's military history - as opposed to just the happenings during World War ? It would be interesting to know this before taking the plunge in trying to determine if his record survived.

Heather

France & Flanders.

His WW1 record is unlikely to have survived, given that he wasn't about to collect a pension.

Even if it had survived, it's not always the case that there is any cross reference to earlier military service.

But given his presence in F&F with the 2nd Bn RSF, he either joined up after his marriage and before WW1, - unlikely I'd have thought given his age then; or, much more likely had joined the army as, say an 18 year old ca 1899, served his (limited engagement) period on active service, then returned to civilian life, but was still officially in the Army Reserve, and was required to return to the colours in 1914.

Given that he was from Ayr the "natural" regiment for regular service would have been the RSF, whose base was in Ayr, - the barracks were down at South Harbour ( I can still recall squads of recruits puffing along the sea front on a training run ) but there is a small chance that any earlier service was with another regiment, but he was in a reserve RSF Bn given his residence in Ayr.

Unfortunately, the RSF museum in Glasgow have no lists of men who served, so that's not a possible alternative route. You may have either to visit Kew, or engage the services of a military records researcher.

(Glasgow, because, in the 1959, the 21st of Foot, the RSF, were amalgamated with the the Highland Light Infantry (City of Glasgow Regiment) (71st of Foot & 74th of Foot), aka "The Glesca Keelies" or "Ladies from Hell", to form the The Royal Highland Fusiliers (Princess Margaret's Own Glasgow and Ayrshire Regiment).

My great uncle Joseph served his time under the colours with the Cameron Highlanders, but, living in Montrose, was in a Black Watch Reserve Bn, before he too was called up from the Reserve for WW1 service, also being kia in 1915, but a couple of months later at Aubers Ridge, part of the 2nd Battle of Neuve Chappell.

David

[rivergazer]

Also, assuming that his Service Record may have survived, would one's service record contain all the person's military history - as opposed to just the happenings during World War ? It would be interesting to know this before taking the plunge in trying to determine if his record survived.

Heather

The WW1 records might possibly be amonst the 'burnt records' or mis-sorts which are very difficult to read if you do find anything as only around 40% survived the WW2 bombings.

Any pre-WW1 records should have survived, and the ones I have seen were very readable and included their military service. I was able to hold the actual Service Record document by visiting the National Archives at Kew, London. If you visit, request the documents by the surname, as he might not have served with the same Regiment that he was with in WW1.

Also at Kew you can request to read the 'war diary; of his battalion, which may shed some light on the day of battle and it's aftermath. Though individuals - apart from officers - are rarely mentioned in the war diaries. Having said that, it depends on the author/writer of the Diary, as I have seen some very detailed recording of all the casualties named. Obviously, you would request the War Diary by the name of the Regiment.

[Heather]

Thanks very much

I've got the War Diary now but had not put much thought into any activity prior to the War; so it sounds like it might be worth taking a look.

Heather

[Pandabean]

Just on a note, one of my reatives served in the Royal Scots Fusiliers, Archibald Greenlees (7513) and he served in the 1st battalion. I contacted the Royal Highland Fusiliers museum which contains both RSF and HLI records. Unfortunately in 1985 a theif broke in, but finding no money he started a fire and most of the RSF archives went up in smoke. Luckily the original war diaries were kept at Kew. The person I spoke to did say they have a small collection of photos of the 1st and 2nd battalions, but they are unamed. If you know what your ancestor looked like then you may have a chance in finding him.

You will probably find on his MIC it states when and where he entered service, this was on most MIC's in 1914-15 but becomes less common in later years of the war. Is there anything else on the MIC that may be a clue to any other medals, such as the notation MM.

Rivergazer, it is actually more like 25-30% of the original records survived the bombings of WW2.

[rivergazer]

Rivergazer, it is actually more like 25-30% of the original records survived the bombings of WW2.

Pandabean
If you read my post again you will see that I was refering to the burnt records, actually, where there is a 40% chance of finding the service record of a soldier who was discharged sometime between 1914 - 1920.

Extract below from TNA:

"more than half of their service records were destroyed in September 1940, when a German bombing raid struck the War Office repository in Arnside Street, London. However, an estimated 2.8 million service records survived the bombing or were reconstructed from the records of the Ministry of Pensions. This means that there is a roughly 40% chance of finding the service record of a soldier who was discharged at some time between 1914 and 1920."

Moreso Pandabean, I am confused why you are looking for a Royal Scot (The Lothian Regiment) in the RHF who are the amalgamation of the Royal Scot's Fusiliers and the Highland Light Infantry. Presumably you visited the museum in Sauchiehall Street, or am I mistaken?