Journeymen

ninatoo · Post by **ninatoo** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:13 pm

Hi all,

I have written this word 'journeyman' many times in my notes next to various occupations, such as shoemaker, baker, hammerman, and so on. And it has just occurred to me tonight that I don't really have a specific definition of what it means. Can someone enlighten me please?

Nina

Muriel · Post by **Muriel** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:18 pm

Hi Nina

A journeyman means someone who works for an employer (comes from French "jour" & the times when people were employed on a daily basis. Master, means he owned the business or was self-employed.

Muriel

ninatoo · Post by **ninatoo** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:31 pm

Thanks Muriel,

But were the journeymen any less of a blacksmith, baker or hammerman because of this...did they still serve apprenticeships? Were they equal to a master in the sense that they had had the same training?

Nina

Russell · Post by **Russell** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:32 pm

Hi Nina

A journeyman was a qualified tradesman who had served an apprenticeship in that trade and satisfied the Masters in that trade that he was competent to practice.
Apprenticeships could be as long as seven years and often, the father might have to pay something to have his son indentured i.e. taken on and recognised by a master tradesman.
In earlier years the apprentice would often live with the Master and receive only clothing and keep and be subject totally to the Master's commands. If he did well he might receive a financial remuneration.
Some trades, like glassblowers, had a requirement that the apprentice produced a test-piece which would be submitted for approval by a committee of Masters of the trade before he could become a journeyman.
Most journeymen were competent tradesmen but didn't have the capital to start up a business of their own and would continue to work in the business of an existing master.
After the industrial revolution many trades required that the apprentice learned the academic side of the craft and Industrial training centres were set up and the apprenticeship system was formalised.
Later still the training was college based and there were day release courses and evening classes to acheive City and Guilds qualifications so that the qualification was recognised nationally rather than satisfying the standards of a local Guild. This allowed the journeyman to be much more mobile and seek work in another town or city.
You were probably looking for a two line explanation

Sorry if I gave the full sermon

Russell

ninatoo · Post by **ninatoo** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:47 pm

Thanks Russell,

No bother...that was precisely what I was looking for. Thanks! Now it all makes sense! However it still has me wondering how the term "journeymen" came about?

Nina

Russell · Post by **Russell** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 1:53 pm

Hi Nina
that has puzzled me too for a long time. I have never seen a satisfactory explanation but wondered if it stemmed from way back when a tradesman had to go the the town or village to build a house/fix a cart/work the stone for the new mansion being built.
Depending on his craft he would be sent by the master to carry out the contract but the master would get the cash. That could explain the 'journey' part.
That would cover Muriel's derivation too.

Russell

Post by **emanday** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:06 pm

Now I might be wrong here, but my family seem to have had a lot of folk in the building and associated trades.

I grew up hearing the term journeyman, but as I understand it, even when a man had completed his apprenticeship he could not call himself a journeyman until he was deemed capable of training apprentices, usually not until a few years after he had completed his own apprenticeship.

Post by **joette** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 2:57 pm

A Journeyman was also a Tradesman who literally journeyed around plying his trade.I think this is why you will find so many of them in the building trade as by the nature of their work they had to go where the work was.I have a Great-Great Grandfather who was a Mason Journeyman& he is never at home for the Censuses.At the 1851 Census he had four of his five sons with him the three eldest all fellow journeymen& my twelve year-old Great-Grandfather as their Appt.
I have always understood the word to mean that they were employees whereas a Master had employees working for them.By the time of his death he was a Master Mason so I presume his sons were classed as his employees by then.

LesleyB · Post by **LesleyB** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 4:42 pm

Hi all
Summary here, which seems to make sense:
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/reference/ency ... 29169.html

Best wishes
Lesley

ninatoo · Post by **ninatoo** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 10:55 pm

Thanks Russell, emanday, joette and Lesley,

The explanation that the term derives from French makes sense! Imagine being paid daily though! You would never really know if you were going to make it through the week!

Nina