McNeil/Thomson of Greenock

[SarahND]

Hello BK,

How far back could I get using online resources?

It depends on how lucky you are with the information you find! From 1855 on, in the Statutory Records, information was asked about the parents' names, occupations, etc. If these lines were filled in on the forms and if they were filled in truthfully… you should be able to find out the names of the parents of anyone who died from 1855 on. In reality, you will find some blanks-- either the informant didn't know the parents' names, or the bride or groom on a marriage didn't want to admit they were illegitimate, etc. But trying to get to the truth is part of the fun of this detective work!

ScotlandsPeople also has the Old Parish Records, which can go back very far, but since registration was not obligatory, not all births, marriages and deaths are included.

Is there a way to save online documents?

On ScotlandsPeople, choose Direct Download as your preferred viewing method on your "My Details" page. The images will download onto your computer and you can re-name them as you please.

http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/conte ... ?r=551&458

I suggest that you explore all the information tabs on the site before you start paying for images, so that you understand exactly what you are doing.

Additionally, is there a free resource available for these documents? It seems Scotlandspeople is a pay site, which very well be worth it. I'd like to get dates and other relatives too and that would take up a lot of "credits" on scotlandspeople.

The searches I was doing on ScotlandsPeople (basically, narrowing down the information, searching again, narrowing down again, etc.) were free. I never saw any of the results, just assumed them from how many results I was getting.

Carol paid for the images she downloaded with her hard-earned cash. There is no other way to do it.

We both have (paid) subscriptions to Ancestry.com, where we were looking up the censuses. These are only transcriptions, not images, and there are often errors, but it helps to narrow things down.

Many libraries have subscriptions to Ancestry.com, so with any luck you can do these census searches for free at your local library and only pay for the image on ScotlandsPeople when you are absolutely sure which one you want.

FreeCen also has many counties transcribed, particularly in the early censuses. Check here to see the coverage for particular years and localities: http://freecen.rootsweb.com/statistics.html

The only place where the actual images of Scottish OPR, Statutory Records, Censuses and Testaments (up to 1900) are to be found online is on ScotlandsPeople.

Many of the OPR records can be found for free on the IGI on FamilySearch.org
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/ ... ch_igi.asp
Keep in mind that this is just an index, however, If you want the images you must get them from ScotlandsPeople.

Read the information on the IGI in the Talking Scot Library:
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=10332

Best of luck with all this and don't hesitate to ask questions if you get stuck!

Sarah

[bk313]

Update:

Unfortunately, I have not been doing much research on this side of the family. I have been rolling through my wife's side. She is French-Canadian so it takes longer for me to read all the documents. However, I was able to obtain a picture of Isabella McPhail and James McNeil holding my ggf circa 1907 via a second cousin over in England. Additionally, I think I may have found the parents for John Clark Bell. It looks like a Neil Bell and a Catherine Hart, but his name is so common (as it seems all of this side of the family is) I have not validated it yet.

Thanks,
BK

[SarahND]

Hi BK,

She is French-Canadian so it takes longer for me to read all the documents.

But they are so beautifully informative and complete! Sometimes I take a spin in my ex-husband's French-Canadian ancestry just for the pleasure of actually FINDING something after getting cornered in my own brick walls!

Additionally, I think I may have found the parents for John Clark Bell. It looks like a Neil Bell and a Catherine Hart, but his name is so common (as it seems all of this side of the family is) I have not validated it yet.

Where did this information come from? Is it John's birth, marriage or death cert that you are trying to decipher, or something else?

Looking at my old notes for this family, I would have thought that John Clark Bell's parents were John and Margaret At least, so it looks like going backwards in the censuses:

1871
33 Lynedoch St, Greenock East, Renfrewshire
John Bell, 25, Head, born Greenock, Renfrewshire, Plumber
Henrietta Bell, 22, Wife, born Glasgow, Lanarkshire
John Bell, 3, Son, born Greenock, Renfrewshire
James Mc D Bell, 7 Mo, Son, born Greenock, Renfrewshire

Note: Agnes was with her grandparents on census night:

1871
33 Lynedoch St, Greenock East
James McDougall, 67, Head, born Inch, Wigtonshire, Sugar House Lab
Agnes McDougall, 65, Wife, born Govan, Renfrewshire
Agness Bell, 4, Granddaughter, born Greenock, Renfrewshire
James Mc D Graham, 2, Grandson, born Greenock, Renfrewshire

1861
45 Cathcart Street, Greenock, Renfrew
John Bell, 50, Head, born Whitchorn, Galloway, Mariner
Margt Bell, 38, Wife, born Greenock, Renfrewshire
Isabella Bell, 20, Daughter, born Greenock, Renfrewshire
John Bell, 16, Son, born Greenock, Renfrewshire, Plumber
Mary Bell, 14, Daughter, born Greenock, Renfrewshire
Robt Mckenzie, 27, Lodger, born Dunbarton, Dumbarton, Engineer Smith

1851
7 Hamilton Street, Mrs Thomsons Heirs
Margt Bell, 34, Wife, born Greenock, Scotland, Sisters Wife
Margt Bell, 13, Daughter, born Greenock, Scotland
Isabella Bell, 11, Daughter, born Greenock, Scotland
John Bell, 7, Son, born Greenock, Scotland
Mary Bell, 5, Daughter, born Greenock, Scotland
Isabella Chahinos, 1, Visitor, born Greenock, Scotland

1841
Shaw St, Greenock Middle, Renfrewshire
John Bell, 30, born Scotland, Rigger
Margert Bell, 25, born Renfrewshire
Margaret Bell, 2, born Renfrewshire
Isabella Bell, 4 Mo, born Renfrewshire

These are all just from my notes and I haven't really wrapped my head around them again. I'd be willing to change my mind if the document you have has all other signs of being the correct one!

All the best,
Sarah

[Alan SHARP]

Hello BK,
.....clip ...edited...
Many of the OPR records can be found for free on the IGI on FamilySearch.org
http://www.familysearch.org/Eng/Search/ ... ch_igi.asp
Keep in mind that this is just an index, however, If you want the images you must get them from ScotlandsPeople.
...............
Sarah

Greetings BK from New Zealand.

Sarah and the rest of the TS team, plus some other very talented contributors, provide an excellent service and all for free. I'm envious when I think of my 30 years of graft, with limited research results.

However I find the last line of Sarah's edited quote above, a little confusing. In the early 1980’s I obtained quite a number of print outs of copies from the OPR’s uplifted from the rolls of film used by the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter Day Saints (LDS) to create the IGI data base, and made available through their Family Research Centres, [at their Temples and larger Parish Centres].

For free I was able to use their equipment to read the films and select the pages of interest, for transcribing and OR image copying.

There was a small fee to cover costs of producing image copies, and or the ordering in of OPR films if not already held by that branch library. Exactly what the story is today I do not know, but would be very surprised if a similar service was no longer available direct from their local Family History Service, and this would apply to many countries should you live handy to a library of theirs. Online ScotlandsPeople is a relatively new initiative.


Alan SHARP.

[SarahND]

Hi Alan,
I stand corrected

However, to be fair to myself, since I'm not quite awake yet, I believe I was just continuing on from my previous sentence (bold font added):

The only place where the actual images of Scottish OPR, Statutory Records, Censuses and Testaments (up to 1900) are to be found online is on ScotlandsPeople.

Certainly, if you have access to the films at your local LDS centre, you can print out the image from the microfilm reader. It is not free, however, and the price of ordering films has gone up quite a bit since the early 1980s (at least where I am), so it is probably cheaper to download from Scotlands People, if you can find the correct image. The advantage to the films is when you are unable to find the correct entry, yet feel sure about the time and place. You can then scroll through the film and try to find it yourself (and at the same time possibly find a number of other family members, which could make it work out cheaper if you find several of them).

All the best,
Sarah

[Alan SHARP]

Thanks Sarah.

As always, being able to VEIW the original, or photos of same, is by far the best option. Possibly a little easier for those of us who learnt to hand write before the days of the ball point pen, and PC keyboards. Getting to grips with an individuals hand writing hand, is all important, by putting your own interpertation on the hand writing, and any additinal scrap of information, not recorded on the standard form, can often be the key to solving a puzzle. Plus a second opinion can be very eye opening.

OFFICIAL typed copies quite often do not include details about witnesses, or who were recorded as supplying the info, and some of the transcribing in indexes etc is way off the mark. I appreciate the time spent by Genelogical Societies when they double blind transcribe their research, and cross check, before publishing. All pieces of the puzzle.

Alan SHARP.

[bk313]

Sarah,

I am actually pretty lucky with a lot of my wife's distant ancestors. Seems a lot of people were doing similar research of a common ancestor and I was able to connect with them. I hit eureka, when I was contacted by what turned out to be her Great Uncle. He had a tremendous amount of family documents with him, including pictures from the 1880's of her family. It was also nice because he was able to garner information since he hadn't spoken with his nephew (my father in law) in over 40 years. Very rewarding.

Regarding John Clark Bell. It is simply pure conjecture for me, that is why I hadn't confirmed it yet. It comes from narrowing down on a familysearch.org search, here

https://www.familysearch.org/s/recordDe ... u8TUc%253D

Though your notes make more sense, as I pretty much confirmed a John Bell and a James McDougall Bell as his sons (Agnes's brothers), so I surmise you working backwards is more accurate than my research.

I hadn't had Agnes's grandparents, James and Agnes McDougall, so thank you for that. Regarding James Mc D Graham, 4, would you think this is a cousin of Agnes? Possibly a son of Henrietta Bell's sister (whom would have married a Graham). I don't have any of the immediate family of these people, but family legend has it that we are related to one Alexander Graham Bell in some way! (Although there are some older family rumors of a connection to Captain Kidd the Pirate, too!)

I am also having trouble with James McNeil's (b. 1878ish) father, Andrew. I have James's siblings, John, Andrew, Christina, Richard, Hector, Martha and Jane but seemingly can't get further than that. A similar problem with Donald Thomson and James McPhail. I simply may not be winding down the searches properly, but I seem to get way too many results (my usual thought is that they are extremely common Scottish names).

@Alan,

I actually have a Great Aunt over in New Zealand coming from this family tree! I was able to obtain some photos via another relative and what a gorgeous country. I actually have a Family Search Center here in my hometown of Providence, RI, USA. I was thinking of going, but I have had little success with the website. Would it be more useful there? Thank you for the advice either way.

Sarah, thanks again for your tremendous help. My mother has recently become more interested in family research because of your help. Much appreciated.

BK

[Alan SHARP]

Greetings BK.

Like many people with an interest in local history and my roots, I'm a jack of all trades, [kiwi can do] but master of none. A bull beef [for the American Hamburger grinding meat trade] producer of 40 years, though the Marriage Registrar would only allow "beef farmer" on our marriage certificate. Therefore there are others contributing to this forum with a lot more expertise than I. Our SHARP/E's left Scotland for NZ between 1842 & 1862.

Research rewards come with keeping an open mind, and putting the hours into research. The more you use the computer and share info, the easer it will become. Even when like me, a few months down the track you have to re-learn to do a procedure. A small note book with tricks learnt, is a good idea for referring to. Long ago I was shown how to transfer an é for the word café into a photo editing programme [no symbols box], and it took me ages, the other day, trying different ways to redo it.

All libraries are different. I try to make my first visits, when they do not expect to be too busy, and go out of my way to work in with them, being polite and considerate. They hold the key to their holdings, so it is important to go prepared with a few key facts/interests on paper, and most often you will receive considerable help. Finding a librarian you can strike a rapport with, will make your day. Local knowledge and period knowledge, are essential for aiding research.

You will never know until you try.

All the best,

Alan SHARP.

[SarahND]

Hi BK,
The John Clark Bell you found would have been very young to father a daughter who was 38 at her marriage in 1904... but it's possible, I suppose! Interestingly enough, there are quite a few John Bells who were plumbers in the census, but the one I followed was the only one with a wife Henrietta and a daughter Agnes of the right age.

All the best,
Sarah

[bk313]

Oops! I had mistakenly put Agnes's birth as 1875, therefore being 28ish around her wedding, but then I went back and realized it was a typo, as she was born in 1865. Though my mother had me when she was 15, I doubt back in 1865 John Clark Bell had his first child at 13! I'll put your information into my tree, with hopes of adding the documents at a later date.

Alan, I actually have a History degree, so I understand the value of a good librarian. My specialties are American history. It's only recently I decided to delve into family research. I have never used one of the Family Research Centers, but I think I will check on it during my next school vacation.

Thanks again for everyone's input and advice,
BK