Greenock Industrial Schools Ships - Josiah Gilray.....

[Tracey]

Sorry Tracey - I looked and you were not showing up as being on TS at the time.
Apologies.

Best wishes
Lesley

I dont know why im not showing as i always leave TS page on when im home

Sorry for butting in Oran

[Oran]

Hello Lesley & Tracey,

Wow ten replies since my last visit, thanks for your interest & support its great.
I really don’t know where to start to answer all your questions, but will do my best to try answer all your questions chronologically.

Thank-you Lesley and Tracey for explaining that, SP meaning, Scotlands People, I really should have realised, silly me.

This is the family I was listing in my initial enquiry Lesley, as in your reply, which I have pasted below, this information was found on this website, as I seem to be linked to this family tree via the marriage of, James Gilray to Elizabeth Gilray nee Phillips 9th Novemeber 1875. (Elizabeth Phillips of my bloodline)
There seems to be a few anomalies especially with ages and the surname Gilray/Gilroy, which makes it easy to get confused with the families.

http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi? ... s&id=I1865

Dwelling: 6 Roslin St
Census Place: West Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203573 GRO Ref Volume 564-3 EnumDist 5 Page 13
James GILROY M 26 M Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: General Labourer
Elizabeth GILROY M 26 F Fort William, Inverness, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Josiah GILROY 10 m M Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Son

I mentioned a young Catherine and Elizabeth all in the same paragraph, which was a mistake, I apologise, as they are separate finds, Catherine daughter b.1878 was found in the 1891 census staying with her Grandma, who had reverted back from her married name Phillips, to Elizabeth Mcpherson, in East Shaw Street, Greenock.
Young Elizabeth, the daughter of James Gilray and Elizabeth Gilray nee Phillips, was a death entry find, which we have, born 1876 but sadly died 4 months, old due to Bronchitis.

Incidentally, you can read what information I have on Elizabeth Mcpherson and her parents, the names I obtained from Elizabeth Mcphersons marriage certificate in Fort William in 1856.

viewtopic.php?t=407

Lesley you mentioned another Josiah Gilray listed in the 1881 census, as listed below, I agree with your guess that this maybe James above’s brother.

Dwelling: 15 Lyle St
Census Place: West Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203570 GRO Ref Volume 564-1 EnumDist 30 Page 16

Annie MITCHELL W 42 F Johnstone, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Householder
David HUTCHESON U 21 M Burntisland, Fife, Scotland
Rel: Lodger
Occ: Shopman (Grocer)
Willm. THOMSON U 24 M Inverkeithing, Fife, Scotland
Rel: Lodger
Occ: Law Clerk
Willm. FORBES U 24 M Nairn, Nairn, Scotland
Rel: Lodger
Occ: Saddler
Josiah GILROY U 23 M Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Lodger
Occ: Engine Fitter


maybe Josiah Gilray who married a Hannah Wilson on the 23rd September, 1892 is James Gilray's brother, this information I got from the James Watt Library, Greenock.


and next door is:

Dwelling: 15 Lyle St
Census Place: West Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203570 GRO Ref Volume 564-1 EnumDist 30 Page 16
William GILROY M 61 M Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Brass Finisher
Marion GILROY M 60 F Glasgow, Lanark, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Duncan GILROY U 24 M Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Son
Occ: Shopkeeper
Ann GILROY U 16 F Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Jane GILROY U 14 F Greenock, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Shopkeeper

I really wouldn’t like to hazard a guess at the above family, however, James and Josiah Gilray’s father, who I have listed as William Gilray married to Ann Thompson, and listed as a Shoemaker this information I have from James Gilray’s and Elizabeths Marriage certificate Entry.

With that out of the way, I come to Tracey, no need to appologise for the abbreviated SP I really should have known that you meant www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk and thank-you for explaining that if I had Josiah b.1880 birth entry it would show James as father & mother Elizabeth and would positively identify him and may very likely the James you found, I really should have thought of that myself as well.
I did not have Josiah Gilray b. 1880 birth certificate, I really don’t know why? But you will be pleased to hear I do now, and can confirm the parents were, James Gilray and Elizabeth Gilray nee Phillips. The information I have been gathering is from paid research, of course Scotland’s People, census, library’s, and generally pestering all in sundry.

Sorry to ask again, but I still do not understand this..

There is only one Josiah b 1880 then double checking by clicking Greenock it matches so .............

I also noted the records are kept at Kew Archives, and wonder if there might possibly be more detailed service and background information there that might positively Identify the name change from Josiah to James? Would anyone know what sort of additional information I might get please.

[Tracey]

Sorry to ask again, but I still do not understand this.. Quote:
There is only one Josiah b 1880 then double checking by clicking Greenock it matches so .............

I think you do know as you've found it !
What i meant was on scotlandspeople when searching for a birth you click Births - then enter name
Surname Gilray
Forename Josiah
Sex Male
Year range 1880-1880
Just putting this information in and then searching there is only 1 result to view.
Underneath Year range is the option to chose the district so i went back and chose the (birth) district as Greenock and there was still only 1 result to view which confirmed the original search result was the Greenock one

Sorry for any confusion and i hope this is a clearer explanation.

Tracey

[Oran]

Hello Tracey,

Thank-you for explaining!

I am with you now

[Tracey]

Hello Oran

I am not the best explainer of things !!
Just a thought - i am not 100% sure on how much more info you can find regarding Josiah at The National Archives but i am sure they will tell you if you give them a call. Even more embarrasing is i should know as i have to do similar their but all that information is in my file for when i do finally manage to get the time to go and hope to refresh my memory on the train journey !

Tracey

[Ina]

Hi Oran,

I've sent you an email with some attachments.

Ina (ex Greenockian)
Current AG chair

[Oran]

Hello Ina,

Thank-you for your email with attachments, which was gratefully recieved, many thanks.

[Andy]

Gilray/Gilroy and Josiah are not common names in the Greenock area. So Josiah Gilray should be a breeze to link up.

From James and Elizabeth Phillip's marriage James' parents are William, a shoemaker deceased, and Ann Thomson, deceased. This is an error, and, under the circumstances, VERY understandable.

In 1841 there is only one Gilroy in Greenock William aged 20, Brassfounder

Still only William age 31 in 1851.

By 1855 the Trade Directory has William Gilroy Brassfounder and Engraver Ingleston Street (NOTE, earlier he stayed at 7 Sir Michael Street)

Also listed Josiah Gilray Brassfounder and Engraver Drunfrochar Road

And William Gilray, shoemaker, 7 Sir Michael Street

By 1861 William Gilroy Brassfounder and Engraver has married Marion Stark (1853) and produced:

William 1854

JOSIAH abt 1856
Duncan Stark 1856 (may be Josiah)
Malcolm Stark 1858
George 1860
Ann McMillen 1865
Jane Urie 1866

Their marriage was recorded in both Barony and Greenock

Josiah Gilray Brassfounder and Engraver also married in 1853, in Barony to Janet Ferguson. They moved almost immediately to Ireland where they produced:

Henrietta 1853

They then moved to Greenock by 1855 and had two other children:

Elizabeth 1855
Josiah 1857
John 1862

William Gilray, Shoemaker ALSO married in 1853 to Armagh born, Ann Larkin (perhaps related to Ina's Larkins).

They produced:

James 1855, your James
Ann 1857
William 1859

William Gilray, shoemaker, dies in 1860 in the house once occupied by William Gilroy, Brassfounder and Engraver. The death was reported by Josiah Gilray, Brassfounder and Engraver , BROTHER. Naming William Gilray, a Paper Maker, and Helen Duncan as parents.

IGI has the following:

1. WILLIAM GILLROY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Marriage: 30 MAY 1817 Currie, , Midlothian, Scotland
to Helen Duncan

They produced the following:

1. SAMUEL DUNCAN GILLRAY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 05 JUN 1822 Denny, Stirling, Scotland

2. JAMES GILLROY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 07 JUN 1818 Currie By Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland

3. ELIZABETH MITCHELL GILRAY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Female Christening: 29 AUG 1824 Colinton, Midlothian, Scotland

4. WILLIAM GILROY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Birth: 25 MAR 1820

5. WILLIAM GILROY - International Genealogical Index
Gender: Male Christening: 16 APR 1820 Muiravonside, Stirling, Scotland

But no sign of Josiah until he's found in an orphanage in 1841:

Piece: SCT1841/685 Place: Edinb.St Andrew-Midlothian Enumeration District: 04
Civil Parish: St Cuthbert's Ecclesiastical Parish, Village or Island: -
Folio: 164 Page: 1
Address: The Orphan Hospital

GILRAY Josiah M 11 Midlothian

Ann (Larkin) Gilray died in 1869 under the maiden name Thomson as reported by the lodger William Kerr. The eldest child was only 14 so there would be confusion over the mother's maiden name later.

In 1871 James is a farm servant in Kilmory, sister, Ann, is a servant in Vennell Greenock and brother, William, is in the Orphanage.

In 1881 William Gilroy Brassfounder is listed as having a 23 year old son, Josiah, however I can't see any link to the Gilrays (except neither of the two families had a clue about their parents or grandparents).

William Gilroy, Brassfounder parents, were William and Jane Urie but his son didn't know this at the time of death.

The Greenock Telegraph has the following, I've just included your lines not William the Brassfounder.

Elizabeth, youngest daughter of the late Joseph [sic] Gilray to John Simpson, cement merchant, Glasgow in July 1885.

Elizabeth Phillips Gilray sister - in - law of James McGill died 9 East Shaw Street June 1883

Henrietta, eldest daughter of the late Josiah, engraver, to Charles McGregor, coach proprietor at Glenbank, Hunter's Quay 6th Aug 1880

James Gilray died 79 Wellington St., Greenock 29th July 1903

Janet Ferguson, widow of Josiah Gilray, Brass Founder & Engraver died at her son - in - laws Jaimeson Place, Nicolson St., Greenock 11th March 1893.

Josiah Gilray, engraver, died 64 Ann St., Greenock 5th Aug 1878 aged 48.

Josiah Gilray (son of Josiah so James cousin not brother) to Hannah daughter of the late James Wilson 78 Holmscroft St. Sept 1892

[Oran]

Hello Andy,

Wow! what a comprehensive reply, and thank-you for taking the time to search, and the reply you have written, it is very interesting.
I am overwhelmed with emotion at the response, as I read your post.

I feel I must also point out that Elizabeth Gilray nee Phillips, that married James Gilray is the bloodline in my tree.

Elizabeth Phillips Gilray sister - in - law of James McGill died 9 East Shaw Street June 1883

Thank-you Andy, I need a little time, to digest all the information in your post.

[Andy]

Hi there, got a bit carried away trying to sort out a link between the Gilroys and Gilrays.

Will have a look for the Phillips family when I'm next up at the Watt.