1851 census lookup.....

[angel]

Hi Jack

Thanks again for the info I come from Glasgow and have been in Duke Street and the Saltmarket even went to the market there although at he time I thought it was scarey. I do not know my North from my South and until I started doing reasearch I never even knew the names of the parishes.

Heather

[Jack]

Hi Heather,

I'd a look at the OPR record for Janet because i know the IGI doesn't always give a full account (usually it's just the basic details), and it's always best (if at all possible) to look at the original page.
--
OPR 572 Vol 4 p 56. Births 1820-1854. Neilston.
TEMPLETON - John Templeton in Dalmarnock Rd. Glasgow and Janet Anderson in Neilston had an illegitimate daughter born 14th July 1847 and baptized at the manse 20th Jany.1848 named Janet.
--
Maybe this was their only child. It doesn't really help any, and the 1871 census will be needed to see if your Janet was indeed born Neilston.
----------------
This is the 1841 census of Agnes Anderson who was caring for wee Janet in 1851. Doesn't add anything either, but no harm in having details of the family. All born RFW.
--
1841 cens 572 Ed 10 p 32 (Neilston)
Neilston Village.
John ANDERSON, 47, blacksmith
Agnes 45
Thomas 16, blacksmith ap.
Agnes 9
Janet 6
Margaret 4
-------------
Next are 2 censuses with Andrew Swan. Father Robert wouldn't have any trouble remembering his 2nd wife's name - but he seems to have a problem with his birthplace - in 1881 it was Edinburgh!
--
1851 cens 644-2 (607) Ed 1 pp 25-26 (Hutchesontown)
4 Adelphi Terrace.
Robert SWAN, head, marr, 42, shopman, b Wiston, LKS [sic]
Emily SWAN, wife, 42, -------- b Luss, DNB
Robert SWAN, son, 11, scholar, b Glasgow
Annie SWAN, daur, 9, scholar, b Glasgow
William SWAN, son, 7, scholar, b Glasgow
Andrew SWAN, son, 5, scholar, b Glasgow
James C. SWAN, son, 2, ------- b Glasgow
&
1861 cens 644-5 Ed 8 p 10 (St. Mary or Tron)
16 Bridgegate.
Robert SWAN, head, marr, 52, eating house keeper, b Luss, DNB [sic]
Emily WALKER, wife, 36, housekeeper, b Glasgow
Robert SWAN, son, -- 21, flesher, b Glasgow
Anne SWAN, daur, -- 19, eating house keeper, b Glasgow
Andrew SWAN, son, 14, scholar, b Glasgow
James C. SWAN, son, 12, scholar, b Glasgow
Catherine PHILLIPS, servant, marr, 33, domestic servant, b Glasgow
Susan CARNIE, servant, u/m 23, domestic servant, b Ireland
Jane ANDERSON, servant, widow, 28, domestic servant, b Coatbridge, LKS
Elisabeth CHALMERS, servant, widow, 19, domestic servant, b Coatbridge
--
Jack

[nelmit]

Hi Heather,

I'd a look at the OPR record for Janet because i know the IGI doesn't always give a full account (usually it's just the basic details), and it's always best (if at all possible) to look at the original page.
--
OPR 572 Vol 4 p 56. Births 1820-1854. Neilston.
TEMPLETON - John Templeton in Dalmarnock Rd. Glasgow and Janet Anderson in Neilston had an illegitimate daughter born 14th July 1847 and baptized at the manse 20th Jany.1848 named Janet.
--
Maybe this was their only child. It doesn't really help any, and the 1871 census will be needed to see if your Janet was indeed born Neilston.
----------------
This is the 1841 census of Agnes Anderson who was caring for wee Janet in 1851. Doesn't add anything either, but no harm in having details of the family. All born RFW.--
1841 cens 572 Ed 10 p 32 (Neilston)
Neilston Village.
John ANDERSON, 47, blacksmith
Agnes 45
Thomas 16, blacksmith ap.
Agnes 9
Janet 6
Margaret 4
-------------

Jack

Jack,

I think this shows the girls in 1881.


Dwelling: Kirktonfield
Census Place: Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland
Source: FHL Film 0203579 GRO Ref Volume 572-1 EnumDist 9 Page 6
Marr Age Sex Birthplace
James MC HAFFIE M 50 M Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Head
Occ: Master Cotton Bleacher Emp 11 Men 50 Women 3 Boys
Agnes MC HAFFIE M 49 F Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Wife
Occ: Cotton Bleachers Wife
Jessie A. MC HAFFIE U 13 F Pollokshaws, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
Lizzi MC HAFFIE U 10 F Pollokshaws, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Daur
Occ: Scholar
James MC HAFFIE U 5 M Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Son
Janet ANDERSON U 46 F Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland
Rel: Sister In Law
Occ: Governess Unemployed
Mary BROWN U 33 F Linlithgow, Linlithgow, Scotland
Rel: Servant
Occ: Domestic Servant

Annette M

[angel]

Hi Folks

Dod a parent seach on LDS had 40 names many of them repeated so I choose the ones that had Neilson spelt correctly although I am not too sure about the last 2 children. The first 4 fit in with the census here they are let me know what you think:-

JANET ANDERSON
Birth: 22 DEC 1833 Christening: 05 JAN 1834 Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland

Parents:
Father: JOHN ANDERSON
Mother: AGNES WHITELAW
AGNES ANDERSON
Birth: 01 MAY 1831 Christening 15 MAY 1831 Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland

Parents:
Father: JOHN ANDERSON
Mother: AGNES WHITELAW
THOMAS ANDERSON
Birth: 08 JUN 1824 Christening: 20 JUN 1824 Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland

Parents:
Father: JOHN ANDERSON
Mother: AGNES WHITELAW
MARGARET ANDERSON
Birth: 20 DEC 1836 Christening: 01 JAN 1837 Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland

Parents:
Father: JOHN ANDERSON
Mother: AGNES WHITELAW
WILLIAM ANDERSON
Birth: 24 OCT 1826 Christening: 05 NOV 1826 Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland

Parents:
Father: JOHN ANDERSON
Mother: AGNES WHITELAW
ROBERT ANDERSON
Birth: 20 FEB 1829 Christening: 01 MAR 1829 Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland

Parents:
Father: JOHN ANDERSON
Mother: AGNES WHITELAW
JAMES ANDERSON
Birth: 12 AUG 1819 Christening: 22 AUG 1819 Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland

Parents:Father: JOHN ANDERSON
Mother: AGNES WHITELAW

Heather

[Jack]

Hi Heather,

I was really hoping that there'd be a "proper" relationship to anyone for Janet in 1861, but alas no - and now there never will be; that was the last chance whilst she was still single (i've added 1851 just to keep them together and 1881 of Janet ANDERSON too).
In 1861 wee Janet is still with a member of the ANDERSON family (Agnes 29) and i'm wondering if Agnes' sister Janet was her mother.
But of course she'd have been very, very young if she was - just 13½ yrs old when Janet was born in 1847. It is possible, but....

Janet ANDERSON born 22 DEC 1833
Janet TEMPLETON born 14 JUL 1847

Maybe the Neilston Kirk Session records would have something on Janet's 1847 birth? Or even about John TEMPLETON's relationship with Janet ANDERSON? The records seem to have survived, but it would need someone to look them up in the National Archives, Edinburgh.

Annette found Janet ANDERSON as an unmarried 46yr old in 1881, but is she the mother who never married John TEMPLETON because of her young age? - a big question.
--
1851 cens 572 (452) Ed 8 pp 19-20 (Neilston)
Neilston Village.
Agnes ANDERSON, 53
Thomas ANDERSON, 25
Agnes ANDERSON, 18
*Janet ANDERSON, 15
Janet TEMPLETON, 3, lodger, -- b Neilston
--
1861 cens 572 Ed 10 p 26 (Neilston)
Neilston Village.
James McHAFFIE, head, marr, 29, bleacher, b Neilston, RFW
Agnes McHAFFIE, wife, 29, bleacher's wife, b Neilston
Agnes McHAFFIE, daur, 8, scholar, b Neilston
John McHAFFIE, son, 6, bleacher's son, b Neilston
Margaret McHAFFIE, daur, 3, bleacher's daur, b Neilston
James WHITELAW, boarder, marr, 55, carter, b Mearns, RFW
Janet TEMPLETON, boarder, 13, bleacher, b Neilston
--
1871 cens 644-9 Ed 59 p 20 (Govan - Tradeston)
53? Crawford St.
//Robert SWAN, head, marr, 31, flesher, b Glasgow
Mary SWAN, wife, 28, ----------- b Glasgow
Margaret CRAWFORD, mother-in-law, widow, 68, -- b Glasgow
Christina PHILLIPS, servant, 14, general servant, b Glasgow
Mary CRAWFORD, visitor, u/m 69, family cook, b Glasgow
/Andrew C. SWAN, head, marr, 24, collar dresser (master), b Glasgow
Janet SWAN, wife, 23, ----------- b Neilston
Mary SWAN, daur, 2, ----------- b Glasgow
Janet LINDSAY, servant, u/m 18, general servant, b Holytown, LKS
--
1881 Census Place: Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland
Dwelling: Kirktonfield
Source: FHL Film 0203579 GRO Ref Volume 572-1 EnumDist 9 Page 6
James MC HAFFIE M 50 M Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland Rel: Head Occ: Master Cotton Bleacher Emp 11 Men 50 Women 3 Boys
Agnes MC HAFFIE M 49 F Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland Rel: Wife Occ: Cotton Bleachers Wife
Jessie A. MC HAFFIE U 13 F Pollokshaws, Renfrew, Scotland Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar
Lizzi MC HAFFIE U 10 F Pollokshaws, Renfrew, Scotland Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar
James MC HAFFIE U 5 M Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland Rel: Son
*Janet ANDERSON U 46 F Neilston, Renfrew, Scotland Rel: Sister In Law Occ: Governess Unemployed
Mary BROWN U 33 F Linlithgow, Linlithgow, Scotland Rel: Servant Occ: Domestic Servant
--
With all those LDS submissions someone else has an interest in the Anderson family.
----
Jack

[angel]

H Jack

I can get someone to look at the Kirk records for me it would be interesting to find out what they say about the birth. I also see see that in the 1871 census my 2 x great grandparents stayed with his brother. I wonder if my great grand mother was named after Mary Crawford that was a vistor and family cook I would like to think so. If i find anything I will let you know.

Heather

[Jack]

Hi Heather,
Just a pity the Neilston Kirk Session records have nothing on John TEMPLETON & Janet ANDERSON's relationship.
You'd have thought there might be as their daur was illegitimate.
I'm assuming there was nothing though....did someone manage to check them for you?

This Poor Relief record of Janet TEMPLETON's doesn't give any indication which Janet ANDERSON is her mother.
There are about 6 other Janet Andersons in Neilston 1841 that could've old enough to be her mother in 1848.
(ages in 1841 range from 7yrs to 39yrs)
Can't see that a search on all these other Janet Andersons in Neilston would help any.
(unless one could be found in America...)
And seems very unlikely that Janet Templeton had signed any Anderson family DCs giving her relationship to them.

There are a few unanswered questions, and they probably always will be.
Like why was wee Janet TEMPLETON listed as a Lodger in 1851?
Was it because she wasn't Agnes WHITELAW's gr-daur? Or that Agnes didn't want to admit the fact she was?
If not her gr-daur, then surely related to her hubby John ANDERSONs family.
(if that were the case then wee Janet wouldn't be actually related to Agnes, and lodger could be correct)
In 1861 the household head was James McHaffie - so wee Janet not directly related to him, and boarder would be right.

Janet Templeton's mother's identity was probably an open secret in Neilston.
Maybe she did know, but was told her mother was in America to stop any "awkward" questions.
The record below though uses the word "supposed". So she's unsure.
I feel that young Janet has been kept in the dark somewhat as regards her mother.

Wonder where Janet ANDERSON b.1833 was in 1861 & 1871? Elsewhere in Scotland? Or what...?
She is with her mother Agnes Anderson m/s Whitelaw in 1851, and Annette found her with sister Agnes (McHaffie) in 1881.
--
DC 1928. 644-12. 807. (Hillhead)
Janet ANDERSON (92), single, d. 18 AUG 1928, at 5 Great George St, Glasgow.
Parents - John ANDERSON, blacksmith (dcd) & Agnes WHITELAW (dcd)
Informant - Alexr? S????T, 21 Holyrood Crescent, Glasgow. [a rather unclear signature]
--
So i suppose the bottom line is that Janet ANDERSON b.1833 might be Janet TEMPLETON's mother.
Against this is the very young age of 13½ yrs she would've been when giving birth.
As said previously not impossible...but.
============================================
Govan Poor Relief Application. D-HEW 17/194. Page 47703.
Janet TEMPLETON or SWAN, 30yrs.
263 Eglinton Street. Low.
Applied - 11.15am 15 Jan 1878.
Born - Neilston. Protestant. Marrried - separate.
Occup - Washing & dressing.
Partially disabled - young child.
Children -
Mary 8, b. Crawford St, Eglinton St.
Amelia 6, b. ditto
Jessie 4, b. Eglinton Place.
Husband Andrew Calderwood SWAN, collar dresser - away from home.
Daur of John TEMPLETON, miner, dead & Janet ANDERSON in America.
--
Asst. Inspector's report. 1pm 16 Jan 1878.
Janet TEMPLETON or SWAN at 263 Eglinton St. Low, is aged 30yrs.
Born in Neilston, protestant, daur of,
John TEMPLETON, miner, dead & Janet ANDERSON supposed to be living in America.
Her husband Andrew Calderwood SWAN, linen dresser aged 31yrs born in High St, Glasgow.
Son of Robert SWAN who keeps an eatery house at 28 Bridgegate & Jane CALDERWOOD, dead.
Family -
Mary 8yrs 10mos, b. Crawford St, off Eglinton St.
Amelia 6yrs 7mos, b. ditto
Jessie 4yrs 5mos, b. Eglinton Place.
Residences -
Present - 263 Eglinton St, Govan - 6wks.
Prior - 17 Eglinton Place, Govan - 4yrs 9mos.
do - Crawford St, Govan - 4yrs.
do - Main St, Pollokshaws, Eastwood - 1yr.
do - So. Wellington St, Govan - 3mos.
do - Drygate, Glasgow - 1yr.
To marriage he 60 So. Wellington St, Govan - 9mos.
--
Married 31 Dec 1866 at 13 Annfield Place.
She is certified in good health & fit for work.
Rent - 11/- a month.
She is a washer & dresser. Earns about 10/- wkly when working.
Settlement - Govan Combination.
--
Medical Certificate.
Dr. Bavie? 107 Eglinton St.
15 Jan 1878.
Janet TEMPLETON or SWAN.
263 Eglinton St.
In good health.
Can work.
Destitute.
Require immediate attention.
--
15 Jan 1878; 2/6 wk. 13 Feb 2/6 p.wk. 3mos?
12 Feb 1879; 2/6 wkly. 1mo.
14 Mar 1879; Continue 2/6 a week 2 weeks then stop. Husband home.
11 Mar 1879 - Off Roll.
=================end
Jack
ps, the submitter(s) of the Anderson children's births, and Janet Templeton's marriage,
may be worth trying to contact on the off chance they know more about wee Janet's parents.
==

[angel]

Hello Jack

Thank You so much for all the info had a look at the 1880 census but no luck there and there were too many in the 1870 to be sure if one was her. As you say it may be worthwhile contacting the submitter.

On Janet Templetons marriage cert it looks as if the parents had married by the way it is recorded. John Templetons occupation on the cert is given as a Hand Loom Weaver.

Heather

[Jack]

Hi Heather,
Yes, a pity the name is Janet Anderson, and not something more unusual.
Just too many Andersons around - i've also got ancestors of the name, so i know!

Janet Templeton would be thinking her parents were married - no reason for her to doubt they weren't.
Suppose we have to remember she posssibly never saw her father,
and it's still not proven that Janet Anderson b.1833 was her mother.
If she was, then wee Janet probably wasn't aware of it.

Maybe she was told her father had died, and her mother decided to start a new life in America?
But in reality her mother was still in Scotland?
I still feel wee Janet wasn't told the full story about her parents...maybe just enough to satisfy any curiosity?

Maybe wee Janet had been told at one time her father was a HLW, but later that he was a miner.
Presume Janet's DC says HLW? If so, then probably copied from her MC.

If only those Kirk Session records had something they might've helped solve the parent problem.
I do hope you can contact the submitter.
Jack

[angel]

Hello Jack

I have checked the LDS site and there is no submitters name but there seems to be at least 3 people submitting and one of those is extracted entry's for all the children.

I was at Edinburgh earlier this year but the kirk records are still in a seperate building and I was told that I would have to pay to get in there too.

What I may have to do is see how much it would cost for them to do a lookup for meas I don't know when I will be back down again and I would love to know what is said in those records.

Janet Templeton/Swan death cert gives no occupation for her father and it was her husband Andrew who registerd the death.

Heather