Potential Irish connection to Ronald or Andrew Baxter??

[JustJean]

Hi Ron

I very strongly suspect there is little I am going to find that you haven't already considered at least a dozen times. I've been trawling the direct immigration lists to New Orleans but have found nothing worth bragging about. No sign of them traveling together. I had considered that perhaps Elizabeth stayed in England to give birth to a first child but no sign of a mother/child comibination either. I realize the US census records that we are considering all indicate children born in New Orleans but I've often discovered that the farther you travel from an event date the dimmer the memory of it becomes. Your experiences with adjustable ages are not unusual at all. Oddly enough this always seems to coincide with whether it would be advantageous to the person to actually become older (employment) or younger (old age!) I've seen variances as great as 12 years in my own famliy and those are now incorrectly carved into their gravestones so beware

One thing to keep in mind especially with the Irish....they stuck together! If there were any surviving relatives of Elizabeth's and they traveled to the US I would be most surprised to not find them in contact or living in close proximity. Baxter also being a much less common surname to track down. So far I've had no luck on this angle either...but felt it was worth mentioning.

It seems the MC is the one huge unknown clue at this point. I hate to ask it but do you have any certain guarantee that is even your Elizabeth and John in Liverpool?? Do you have other documentation that states they were married in England?

Best wishes
Jean

[boatsport]

Jean
I do not know for sure on the MC; but it was an Elizabeth Baxter and a John Clarke. At this point, I will need to verify that this Elizabeth Baxter was from Ireland, and John from England. I will post my finding at end of this week.

I have to tell you that two years ago, I had no significant facts about my ancestors prior to about 1930. I didn't know my grandmother was a twin, didn't know she was a Clarke, etc., etc. I had no known family members still alive that could help, but I have been able to piece together a massive amount of information via the internet, civil and church records, and contacts with distant cousins (didn't know they existed). My mother's family had the same research issues. I have been able to verify her ancestor records (on some of her family) back to as far as 1600.

Verification has been important to me; I often found problems in records and family lore. These Forums have provided amazing amounts of valuable assistance. I was very reluctant to use them , at first. However, I found significant clues from ancestor family (decendants of brothers and sisters) that I didn't know existed. As you pointed out, unusual names, occ., friends, witnesses at baptism, witnesess at marriages all help. Over and Over, I found that verification is a must; that is why it can be worth while following leads that at first seem to be "a wild goose chase." I have also found that genealogy detectives like yourself, that have extensive experience, can help us focus on alternative ideas... yes these do often work, because we become biased by bad assumptions or bad data. David Douglas (#395 on this site) found the marriage lead in the BMD record in about an hour, after I had looked for it for a year; I just couln't believe it was possible for it to have occurred before 1851.

Thanks, and Sláinte
Ron

[JustJean]

Hi Ron

I realize how far afield your thread has been dragged from your original question....Can anyone help you with information on the Baxter family from Ireland? I didn't forget!! Let's just say there are several Baxter famlies originating in Ireland that have couples old enough to possibly be Elizabeth's parents dying in Scotland. When you get the MC info and with any luck it will provide a father's name and occupation then we can see if there is any chance of a match.

Your journey has taken you far in just a couple years! Fingers are crossed that you haven't reached the end just yet. Glad to hear that you've found some good contacts and have quickly learned the value of verification and the need for caution with other folks' data.

By the way....is there any chance that parents were named on the DC from New Orleans for Elizabeth....or did the info you discovered come from online indexes?? Is there any chance of some clues to baptisms or burials tucked away in RC Church records from Louisiana? Still trying to think of something that could be helpful.

Best wishes
Jean

[boatsport]

Jean
I don't know what DC means??
Well, I may have some bad news in the MC. ... No age information, no nationality and no name for mothers. For Age, it has the word "full" written into the space... ????I have no idea what that means???(':?:')
Here is what I have on this Elizabeth Baxrter and John Clarke on the marriage certificate:
Married 20 May 1849, Liverpool
John Clarke, occ Mariner, Living on Norforth St., father Edward Clarke, also a Mariner
Elizabeth Baxter, no occ., Living on Norforth St., father Denis Baxter, Teacher
witness: Patrick Kernun and Margaret Mullen.
The certificate appears to be an interpretation of the original; not a photo copy.
Looks like I have alot of work to do.(':shock:')

Sláinte
Ron

[JustJean]

Hi Ron

First off...DC is shorthand for Death Certificate...just like MC is for Marriage Certificate and BC is for?

I'm glad you now see how limited the English certifcates are. Quite a difference between Scotland and England if you've any Scottish experiences but of course Scotland didn't start their statutory recordkeeping until 1855 so you may not have found a surviving OPR record at all if they wed there....especially if it had been in the RC church! Now you do have some wonderful clues in there!! Names for both fathers!!!! And a Mariner!! Maybe that accounts for being missed out on the census. I'll take a look around but I can tell you right quick that the Baxters I was eyeballing in Scotland didn't have a Denis amongst them

"Full" in place of an exact age simply means then were of a legal age to be married. Not especially helpful in your case!

Off to have a look around...will let you know if anything exciting comes up!

Best wishes
Jean

[JustJean]

Hi Ron

I wonder if it might be possible to make any progress in a search of mariner records? Since the MC does not state "Master" Mariner then he may have just been a crewmember of little or no importance....but the fact that his father before him was a Mariner might be a pointer in a more solid connection to the trade. I've never had a mariner in my own family but have helped someone trace a Master Mariner once before and got the information on how to go about it from another TS member named BobG. He has a write up on here somewhere of the great results he had from the records held at the Guildhall Library. Well....to make a long story short....it appears that many of these indexes have been filmed and are available through the FHL as well as having research performed by Guildhall staff. It's possible you might have some success in this area. Here is a link to a website that explains what is available and how to go about accessing it:

http://www.mariners-l.co.uk/UKMasters.html

I noticed too that there is a baptism on the IGI of an Elizabeth Baxter to parents Denis Baxter and Elizabeth but it shows she was a young teen by the time the baptism took place in England. The coincidence of the names was startling but it surely would not point towards an Irish birth. It might be interesting to view the original record though just in case it had some bearing on things.

I had a wee rummage in a limited access to a historical newspaper website that included a New Orleans newspaper from the time period your family was living there. There was a rather prolific advertiser by the name of John Clarke who took the best photographs in town and was still on Canal Street...... but nothing that looked like any clues to your Clark(e) people.

I keep hoping to hit the jackpot on this one but am quickly running out of ideas....

Best wishes
Jean

[boatsport]

IGI has an Elizabeth Baxter, with Father Denis listed:
Re: ELIZABETH BAXTER
Birth:: MAY 1827
Christening 12 MAY 1844 Saint James, Manchester, Lancashire, England
Parents:
Father: DENIS BAXTER Family
Mother: ELIZABETH
Saint James isn’t a Catholic church (Church of England); it is beginning to look as if the MC is not the correct MC... I am baffled and surprised at the coincidence. Everything the daughters said and did indicated Irish Catholic. All census results of daughters point to Irland birth. Family lore on her would have to be extremely wrong. My name Ronald Baxter would have to irrelevant. I think I will go back to the drawing board relative to my post on the MC in Liverpool. Too many things point to a name coincidence for the marriage.

[David Douglas]

Ronald,

I found the extracted OPR record on the IGI for the birth of Eliza Baxter in 1827, father Dennis Baxter, mother Elizabeth.

Birth: 31 MAY 1827
Christening:
29 JUL 1827 New Jerusalem Temple Bolton Street-New Jerusalemits,Salford, , Lancashire, England

So that's why she was christened again (in, I assume, the Church of England) as a teenager. Maybe the father or mother remarried, and the step-children had to convert.

I'm no religious expert, but my impression is that there's a bigger jump in going from the New Jerusalem Church to the C. of E, than from the C. of E. to the Catholic Church. (My mother used to be a member of the New Jerusalem church, founded by Swedish mystic Emanuel Swedenborg.)

This must surely be the woman who married John Clarke, but whether this is your Elisabeth Baxter is less certain. It doesn't look like this one was born in Ireland, though there is a two month gap before the first christening. Did you try looking fro an 1841 census record in England?

Regarding the marriage in 1849, the names of the witnesses certainly sound Irish, though that wouldn't be surprising in Liverpool.

The 1870 census in New Orleans looks very much like your lot - I've seen much greater fluctuations in age from census to census. Maybe it wasn't even the family themselves that provided the information, if they weren't home. Maybe the landlord, neighbour, etc.

[boatsport]

David

Thanks for your help and another great answer. I have found a few more details, but I am running into another set of dead-ends. Here is what I now know about Elizabeth Baxter and John Clarke.

What I “know”:
Elizabeth Baxter was born in Ireland between 1827 and 1832 (from various US census reports and New Orleans La USA death certificate). She married John Clarke (born in England, about 1821, as listed on New Orleans death certificate). They married prior to 1851, since their first child (Thomas) was born March 1851, in New Orleans, Louisiana. They had another boy (J Clarke) around 1854 and twin girls Jan 1863, in New Orleans. The girls were named Margaret and Mary. I do know that their children were raised Catholic and the children generally married Irish Catholics.
We have found the following records, but some of the linkages are difficult and not clear.

Re: Marriage License, Parish Church of Liverpool:
You found an Elizabeth Baxter and John Clarke (Mariner) married in Liverpool, May 20, 1849; certainly consistent with the above records (no verifiable immigration records have been found). John's father was listed as Edward Clarke (Mariner). Elizabeth's father was listed as Denis Baxter (Teacher). Witnesses were Margaret Milone (Mullen) and Patrick McKernum (McKernan).

Now it gets difficult. I found on the LDS site: ELIZABETH BAXTER, born May 1827, Christened 12 MAY 1844 Saint James, Manchester, Lancashire, England, Father: DENIS BAXTER. After many days of checking England and US census and immigration records, I do not yet know this is the same Denis Baxter and Elizabeth Baxter appearing in the Liverpool marriage. The age appears correct, but that Elizabeth would have been born in England. I did find a Denis Baxter listed in Ireland records but have found no link to him. I guess I may have jumped to assume the LDS Denis and Elizabeth Baxter were the same as on Liverpool marriage record but that may have been a mistake. Searching 1841, 1851, and 1861 records I do not yet have a link to the LDS information. No age information was listed on the marriage license.

Research on the witnesses:
I have not made a solid connection between the Liverpool couple and My Elizabeth Baxter (Irish) and John Clarke (English). However, I did find some relevant facts from research on the witnesses to the marriage. Elizabeth Baxter had been living with the following household: --Hannah Baxter 51, wife of a Mariner (Thomas Baxter, at sea during 1851 census), Margaret Baxter 25, George Baxter 16, Henry Baxter 14, Ann Baxter 12, Estell Baxter 10. The Baxter’s were listed as from England.
The following people were also in the household:
--Robert Forsyth 18, from Scotland.--Margaret Milone (Mullen) 26, Mariner’s wife, William Milone 31, Mariner, both from Scotland
--Hannah Mary Good 22 & William Good 29

The family of, a witness, Patrick McKernum (McKernan) was from Ireland and Scotland.

I found Edward Clarkes (Mariners of the right age) in England, but no links to John Clarke of the Liverpool marriage.

The bottom Line:
- It may be that the Elizabeth Baxter and John Clarke married in Liverpool, 1849, are my Elizabeth and John.
- I have no reason to believe that the above Hannah Baxter (of Whitby, Yorkshire, England) was a mother of the Liverpool Elizabeth Baxter. However, it may prove to be a link to the Denis Baxter of Saint James, Manchester, Lancashire, England.
- I would love to find a link between the Liverpool couple and their Irish and English parents. It is interesting that their friends were from Scotland and Ireland, Perhaps, Thomas and Hannah Baxter may have links to Scotland or Ireland Baxter families.

Sláinte
Ronald Baxter McGough