Margaret Wotherspoon in Old Monkland.....

[AndrewP]

I have looked at the death certificate that you have uploaded. I am reasonably sure that her married surname was Thom. This goes along with 4 entries on the online IGI to be found in the right geographical area belonging to Robert Thom and Margaret Smellie.

MARGARET THOM - Christening: 16 APR 1837 Old Monkland, Lanark
JEAN FREW THOM - Christening: 01 MAY 1842 Old Monkland, Lanark
MARION THOM - Christening: 25 JUL 1852 Cambusnethan, Lanark
JANET THOM - Birth: 18 AUG 1855 Cambusnethan, Lanark

A couple of LDS submission entries show Archibald (1833) and John (1839). Unfortunately the online IGI shows only female births for the parishes of Old Monkland and Canmbusnethan. So it is probable there should be some male births to this couple in the OPRs, but not showing on the online IGI.

The 1855 birth certificate for Janet must be worth a look at, on the ScotlandsPeople website.

Also the IGI gives the marriage of ROBERT THOM and MARGARET SMELLIE, 10 FEB 1833, Old Monkland, Lanark.

All the best,

Andrew Paterson

[Jack]

Hi Bob,

I'll go along with Andrew - looks like THOM to me, but i could see it looking like SHAW without knowledge of any other name.
--
Later....

Now i understand - i'm awfy slow at times! You'd searched for Margaret's DC under her maiden name of SMELLIE only, and you'd thought her married name said SHAW.
I'd presumed (very wrong to do!) that you'd known (from family bible, word of mouth, or what) that she had married a Robert SHAW, and with a cross check had found her DC under both names.
Very understandable now why you did think SHAW - it does look like it, and you'd no way of knowing of the existence of the THOM name at the time.

I can get back to my bed now

Jack

[bobj-kirk]

Andrew,

I looked up the 1855 BR for Janet Thom as you suggested and confirmed that the family name is Thom and not Shaw.

With respect to the problem of only female births, I noticed the same thing. I did a search for Thom /Smellie children on SP and found the OPR births for the boys you listed. I did the same search on the IGI batches for Old Monkland and only the girls showed up. So, I assume the problem is unique to IGI. Do you know how many parishes are affected by this problem?

Jack,

Your're right about what I did. I just looked at the DR and read it as Shaw without having any outside reason to think it should be anything else. The 1855 BR for Janet Thom confirms that its not Shaw though. I have run into both names in my family, so I guess I am going to have to be more careful with poor handwriting.

Thanks everyone.
-Bob

[AndrewP]

....With respect to the problem of only female births, I noticed the same thing. I did a search for Thom /Smellie children on SP and found the OPR births for the boys you listed. I did the same search on the IGI batches for Old Monkland and only the girls showed up. So, I assume the problem is unique to IGI. Do you know how many parishes are affected by this problem?....

The females only issue with the online IGI is quite commonplace. My feeling from experience is that somewhere in the region of 30% of parishes list only the female births. This is applicable only to the online IGI. The IGI on microfiche at various libraries or at LDS Family History Centres (on CD / computer system) is complete with male and female births. For pre-1855, SP has the male and female births from the OPRs only (excluding LDS submissions and the like that appear on the IGI).

The other factor to bear in mind is that the IGI is dominantly an index of births and marriages that appeared in the Old Parochial (Parish) Records (OPRs). Many births that took place were never registered in the OPRs. The OPRs were recorded by the Established Church of Scotland. People of all churches were supposed to tell the Established Church of Scotland about the births in their families. For reasons of cost, or principal about going to and telling "another" church, many families did not have their births recorded. Also some OPRs have been lost over the years and never made it to the General Register Office for Scotland (GROS) when it was established in 1855. There is an estimate that I have seen used that about 30% of births are in the OPRs. That has to be an average, and the coverage becomes much less the further back you go.

All the best,

Andrew Paterson

[Jack]

Hi Bob,

Some censuses - if there is anyone in particular you need, then please just say.
---------
1851 cens 628 (649) Ed 12 p 5 (Cambusnethan)
Stirling Rd.
Robert TOM [sic], head, marr, 40, pit engineman, b Old Monkland
Margaret TOM, wife, 37, ------------- b Old Monkland
Archibald TOM, son, 17, coal miner, b Old Monkland
Margaret TOM, daur, 14, knitter, b Old Monkland
John TOM, son, 11, coal miner, b Old Monkland
William TOM, son, 6, ------ b Old Monkland
Robert TOM, son, 2, ------ b Cambusnethan
Alexander GARDNER, lodger, u/m 29, pit headman, b Old Monkland
&
1861 cens 628 Ed 14 p 2 (Cambusnethan)
Stirling Rd.
Robert THOM, head, marr, 53, engine man - coal, b Old Monkland
Margaret THOM, wife, 47, --------- b Old Monkland
John THOM, son, u/m 21, coal miner, b Old Monkland
Robert THOM, son, 12, scholar, b Camneshan [sic]
Marion B.S. THOM, daur, 8, scholar, b Camneshan [sic]
Janet THOM, daur, 5, scholar, b Camneshan [sic]
[wonder what Marion's initials B.S. are...]
---------------
1851 cens 652 (634) Ed 12 p 11 (Old Monkland)
Langloan. [schedule 42]
Ann WOTHERSPOON, head, widow, 66, tambourer, b Old Monkland
Hugh WOTHERSPOON, son, u/m 32, quarrier, b Old Monkland
Alexr. WOTHERSPOON, son, u/m 26, engineman, b Old Monkland
Isabella THOM, sister, u/m 60, tambourer, b Old Monkland
[John SMILLIE was on next page 12 - schedule 44]
-----------------
1861 652-2 Ed 25 p 6 (Old Monkland)
151 North Square, Gartsherrie.
James WOTHERSPOON, head, marr, 38, moulder in iron foundry, b Langloan
Catherine WOTHERSPOON, wife, 38, --------- b Airdrie
Alexander WOTHERSPOON, son, 15, moulder in iron foundry, Langloan
Catherine WOTHERSPOON, daur, 13, at home, Gartsherrie.
William WOTHERSPOON, son, 10, at home, ---------
Hugh WOTHERSPOON, son, 8, at home, ---------
James WOTHERSPOON, son, 6, scholar, -----------
Ann WOTHERSPOON, daur, 3, -------- , --------
Peter WOTHERSPOON, son, 1 mo, ---, -------
[the last 5 children had no birthplace - probably meant to be Gartsherrie]
[forgot to get the family in 1851]
----------------
1851 cens 652 (638) Ed 37 p 21 (Old Monkland)
4 Low South Row, Summerlee, Gartsherrie.
Peter WILSON, head, marr, 21, coal miner, b Renfrew [sic], RFW
Ann WILSON, wife, 21, ----------- b Old Monkland
Ann WOTHERSPOON, mother-in-law, widow, 65, ----- b Old Monkland
William AMPLETON? nephew, 6, --------- b Glasgow
&
1861 cens 652-2 Ed 24 pp 22-23 (Old Monkland)
127 Long Row, Gartsherrie.
Peter WILSON, head, marr, 29, coal miner, b Paisley [sic], RFW
Ann WILSON, wife, 29, --------- b Langloan
Peter WILSON, son, 9, scholar, b Gartsherrie
William WILSON, son, 2, -------- b Gartsherrie
Margaret WILSON, daur, 2 mos, --- b Gartsherrie
Ann WOTHERSPOON, mother-in-law, widow, 75, tambourer, b Langloan
------------
1861 cen 652-2 Ed 16 p 18 (Old Monkland)
Stevensons Land, Gartsherrie.
William WOTHERSPOON, head, U/M [sic], 43, coal miner, b Old Monkland
Jane NEILSON, wife, U/M [sic], 38, no stated occupation, b Old Monkland
William WOTHERSPOON, son, 6, ----------- b Old Monkland
Ann WOTHERSPOON, daur, 4, ------------ b Old Monkland
Robert WOTHERSPOON, son, 1, -------- b Old Monkland
--------------
1861 cens 652-2 Ed 16 p 19 (Old Monkland)
Stevensons Land, Gartsherrie.
Robert WOTHERSPOON, head, marr, 37, shoemaker, b Langloan
Mary Ann WOTHERSPOON, wife, 25, ----------- b Campsie, STI
William WOTHERSPOON, son, 8, scholar, b Coatbridge
Margaret WOTHERSPOON, daur, 6, -------- b Coatbridge
John WOTHERSPOON, son, 2, -------- b Coatbridge
-------------
You may see a tie at some point with these other Wotherspoons.

Jack

[bobj-kirk]

Jack,

Thanks for all the lookups.

I couldn't help myself when I saw the name Marion B.S. Thom. I did a lookup and she was the only Marion B.S. Thom on SP. I downloaded her DR and confirmed her name was Marion Brown Smellie Thom. It is possible she was just named after her aunt Marion Brown Smellie Brown (who is not my direct ancestor), but I think there is also a good chance that I have a direct ancestor Marion Brown (not just Brown) a little further back. Time will tell, I hope.

The Wotherspoons you list look interesting. I now have them all in my working papers and I will try to fit them in as I (hopefully) go forward with Wotherspoon.

I appreciate your offer of more lookups. I have some other stuff where census lookups would really help. I think I will get organized and start a new thread though. I would be glad if you would respond to it when I put it up.

Thanks again.
-Bob

[AndrewP]

Some food for thought for you. According to the online IGI, two Marion Browns married men of surname Smellie. It is possible that either could be related to your people - there's some homework for you. It also could be that neither is related, or there is not sufficient information to tell you for sure. A parent search on the IGI gives no children of either couple.

William Smellie - Marion Brown
04 Dec 1774
OPR - Hamilton, Lanarkshire
(also shown as 11 Dec 1774 by LDS submission)

Thomas Smellie - Marion Brown
03 Apr 1792
OPR - Libberton, Lanarkshire

Geographically, Hamilton is closer to your people of Old Monkland (Coatbridge) and Cambusnethan (Wishaw).

All the best,

Andrew Paterson

[bobj-kirk]

Andrew,

Before starting this thread, I was convinced that the first listing you show (John Smellie from Hamilton) was my ancestor mainly because of the Marion Brown connection even though there were a few niggling details. After much assistance, and particularly prodding from Jack, we finally determined that he was not in my line at all. The second one looked tempting for a while, but Jack supplied a census showing my John Smellie was born 1780 to 1785, so Thomas (m. 1792) probably wasn't right. Another piece of circumstantial evidence is that Thomas is a name that just doesn't appear in the later Smellie family. He is a longshot, but I can't connect him yet. Sigh!

Marion could just as easliy be one of Margaret Wotherspoon's ancestors rather than John Smellie's. I can't find a Marion Brown marrying a Wotherspoon, but we just determined Margaret's mother was Margaret Miller, so there is a very longshot OPR with David Miller married Marion Brown in Campsie in 1709. Margaret was born ca 1779, so they could be her great grand parents. The IGI has a few other possible Marion Brown/Miller families, but they are even earlier. Sigh!

And of course, maybe I am wrong about the ancestor's name being Marion Brown and the ancestor was just a Brown who supplied a middle name for the first Marion Brown Smellie. Sigh!

One of the problems here is we are coming to the period before the industrial expansion of Old Monkton. I think the parish statistical account said the population in 1800 was 4000 and in 1755 was 1800. This probably means that most people came from other places and with only OPRs to go on, it is hard to make connections.

-Bob

[Jack]

Hi Bob,

Two censuses i'd missed - though nothing of great import. Just tidies them up to 1861.
--
1851 cens 652 (638) Ed 40 p 16 (Old Monkland)
Herriot Row, Gartsherrie.
James WOTHERSPOON, head, marr, 28, moulder, b Old Monkland
Catherine WOTHERSPOON, wife, 27, moulder's wife, b New Monkland
Alexander WOTHERSPOON, son, 5, --------- b Old Monkland
Catherine WOTHERSPOON, daur, 3, -------- b Old Monkland
William WOTHERSPOON, son, 11 mos, ----- b Old Monkland
---------
1861 cens 652-2 Ed 2 p 5 (Old Monkland)
Calder Place, Bank St, Langloan.
Hugh WOTHERSPOON, head, u/m 42, quarryman, b Old Monkland

[Hugh was living by himself]
--
Jack

[winger]

Hi, just saw this thread and wondered if you had a john wotherspoon who was the manager of messrs Baird (steel works) in Coatbridge.
Date wise around 1880-1910.
I am trying to find a Half -sister of my GGGG Aunt.
The Aunt is called Mary Stewart McCann and she was born 1829 in Greenend the only info I have is on her poorlaw dated 1891 where she says she has aunt called Margaret Stewart a half sister named Margaret Rennie and a cousin John Wotherspoon the manager of Messrs Baird and Co. the family came from greenend/Whifflet/Coatbridge and I just wondered if any of this info rings any bells!