Sutherlands--Renfrewshire (Johnstone and Greenock) c. 1800

[DuncanBSutherland]

I am looking for information (aren't we all!) on my great-great-great-grandfather, James Sutherland, and his wife, Agnes Pender. James was born in Brig O' Johnstone and was a cotton-spinner; Agnes was born in Greenock. I do not know their exact birth dates, but in the 1841 Scotland Census James was recorded as "40" (i.e., 40-45 if the census taker played by the rules) and Agnes was recorded as "35" (i.e., 35-40). This would put their births c. 1800 if my math is right.

I hope to be able to get back to Scotland to some on-the-ground research but in the meantime I am trying to put together as much background as I can so at least I know what data I will be looking for in origina documents.

Thanks in advance for any assistance!

Duncan
Poulsbo, Washington, USA

[Big Eagles]

Duncan,

Have details on an Agnes Sutherland who was married to a James Sutherland. She died 26/08/1870 aged 60 though the death cert seems to start her age at 68, then 65 and finally they seemed to settle on 60 - so birth date seems to be anywhere between 1802-1810.

Parents of Agnes, John Pender & Agnes Pender. Her husband James was still going as he signed the death cert.

Is this the lady you're looking for?

Regards

Andy

[DuncanBSutherland]

Thanks for the quick reply, Andy!

The birth date range sure seems about right. However, according to OPR Births, on 7 April 1832 the Agnes Pender and James Sutherland (of Johnstone) I am looking for had a son James, with the birth record appearing in Abbey. James Sutherland (1832-?) then had a son John Pender Sutherland (1859-?) who was my great-grandfather.

What do you think?

Duncan

[SarahND]

Hi Andy & Duncan,
Andy, where did she die?
Is this one or the other (or both) of your Agneses in 1861?

12 Russel St, Blythswood, Glasgow Barony, Lanarkshire
Mary Wallan Kuller, 35, Widow, born Kilpath, Dunbarton, Householder
Wm C Mann, 31, Boarder, born Greenock, Renfrewshire, Master Mariner
Agnes Sutherland, 62, Visitor, born Greenock, Renfrewshire

All the best,
Sarah

[SarahND]

Hi again Duncan,
Just to get straight who we are talking about, I assume this is your family in 1841, with their birth places wrongly indicated as Lanarkshire:

1841
Mckechnie St, Barony, Lanarkshire
James Sutherland, 40, born Lanarkshire, Cotton spinner
Agnes Sutherland, 35, born Lanarkshire
William, 15, born Lanarkshire, Shoe M App
James, 9, born Lanarkshire

Then either we have another nearly identical family, or this is the same family group as in 1841, but James is no longer a cotton spinner and the places of birth are even more fanciful. Excuse Ancestry's bizarre transcription, that has both James Sr and Jr. "warking" in Iran ...

1851
Black Bull Land Dundyvan, Dundyvana Casthridge, Old Monkland, Lanarkshire
Jas Sutherland, 51, Head, born Durdar, Parsler, Watchman In Iran Wark
Agnes Sutherland, 47, Wife, born Monkland, Old
Wm Sutherland, 27, Son, born Johnston, Renfrew, Laberour
James Sutherland, 19, Son, born Cattaw, Glasgow, Naller At Iran Warks

This Agnes would appear to be Andy's Agnes, who, according to the IGI was born 11 Aug 1805 in Old Monkland, Lanark
Father: John Pendar
Mother Agnes Whitelaw

I don't see an Agnes Pender born Greenock in the IGI-- do you think she is the same as the Old Monkland one, or do we have a family of doppelgangers here

Regards,
Sarah

[SarahND]

Ah! Forget what I said about Agnes in 1861. Here she is, bizarrely transcribed:

1861
155 Queen St, Dalziel, Lanarkshire
James Sutherland, 61, Head, born Paisley, Renfrewshire, Labourer Iron Works
Angnes p Sutherland, 57, Wife, born Old Monkland, Lanarkshire
Peter Morrison, 27, Lodger, born Old Monkland, Lanarkshire, Engine Keeper Iron Works

So... this looks to be your Agnes, but still firmly claiming to have been born in Old Monkland. Who is the Agnes born in Greenock who was a visitor in Mary Wallan Kuller's house? Hmmm. Maybe we'd better backtrack and find out how you learned that your Agnes was born in Greenock. Is it possible that the Greenock one was someone else?

Regards,
Sarah

[SarahND]

Sorry, can't let this one go

Here is James, a widower in 1871:

1871
Sunnyside, Tudhope's Land, Coatbridge, Old Monkland, Lanarkshire
James Sutherland, 71, Head, born Paisley, Renfrewshire, Watchman

Could this be his christening on the IGI?

JAMES SUTHERLAND
Christening: 14 APR 1799 Middle Church, Paisley, Renfrew
Father: WILLIAM SUTHERLAND
Mother: JANET KELLMAN

I don't see him in 1881, but on Scotland's People there is a death in 1880, Dalziel Lanarkshire, of a James Sutherland, born 1800. If I were you I'd fork up the ££ for the certificate and have a look.

All the best,
Sarah

[DuncanBSutherland]

Sarah, thanks for the info! Yes, I need to break out the old credit card and get old James death certificate--although I feel pretty confident that he is the 'right' James. My hope is that the certificate will hold the key to his parents.

I have been doing my best to help the Scot economy by investing my retirement in searches on ScotlandsPeople!

The Sutherland family from the 1841 Scotland Census is correct. The elder James is my great-great-great-grand-father and James the younger is my great-great-grandfather. James the elder, on later censuses, has his birthplace recorded correctly as Brig O' Johnstone (or just Johnstone), Paisley, Refrewshire. As for Agnes' birthplace, I made a note to myself that it was Grennock but now that you point out the contradiction I think I made a mistake. Sorry! James the younger on the 1841 Scotland Census later married Jean Davidson who was from Greenock. The Iran reference was quite amusing.

Thanks for the additional detail on the 1851 census; I had the dates but not the details. The transcription is quite 'creative' to be sure! I think that you have (no pun intended given the younger James occupation!) nailed down my and Andy's Agnes. Your eyes must be a lot better than mine though as I could not make out the "Whitelaw" on Agnes' death certificate--although it is quite obvious now tha you point out. I got the Whit- part but the rest eluded me until now.

The 1861 Scotland Census data squares with everything else.

How can you live in Minnesota, Idaho and France at the same time!?

Thanks again to everyone for all the help as I learn the ins and outs of genealogical research!

Duncan

[DuncanBSutherland]

One of the reasons my mind might have been thinking Renfrewshire rather than Lanarkshire for Agnes' place of birth is the following from OPR Marriages:

Names: Jas. Sutherland & Agnes Pender
Abode: Eaglesham
Proclaimed: 22 Dec. 1822
Married: 31 Dec. 1822

I guess I was wondering how a nice gal from Old Monkland could end up meeting a handsome bloke from Johnstone and why they both ended up in Eaglesham. It is questions like these that make family history so interesting!

Unfortunately, the record provides no further data. My intuitive leap was obviously shorter than the intuitive gap I was trying to cross!

Duncan

[Russell]

Hi Duncan

Your question about how Agnes met James Sutherland is probably related to the weaving cottage industry. All the villages around Paisley were involved in various forms of weaving, linen, cotton wool, silk and they form a wide arc round the town. At one stage what is now Pollockshaws in Glasgow, was part of Renfrewshire under the broad heading Abbey.
We forget how far they walked routinely back then and there were reasonable roads for the carts carrying the manufactured bolts of material so Boy meets Girl sometimes crossed parish and district boundaries.
Genetically it was probably a good thing too.

Russell